The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Please come along, draw up a stool, and have a good chat about whatever you fancy - as serious or as trivial as you like.

For starters, I have a half-pint of lemonade. What can I get anyone?

Bless you, kim, thanks!

I also think people shift between forms of feminism. I've been very certain about things ... then uncertain ... certain of something else ... back again ... Those changes aren't (I think) something I'm ashamed of, I just know that these debates are very complex and it takes me time to work out what I really feel I can settle behind and decide is right.

moon - I agree, she is exceptionally hard to listen to.

LRD - I might have come across you in fb groups then!

I doubt it, grennie - I've been in very few that were primarily feminist, and several that were local or to do with a particular interest - it's there I've had most of my rows.

I would like to be more involved in FB groups but I struggle a bit and a friend of mine gets so down about constant trolling, it puts me off.

(Though, if we have come across each other, that'd be lovely!)

I hated Wifework. Would have to go and get it off the bookshelf and quote bits to properly explain why!

Ooh thanks Grennie. I like reading on my phone at the moment and free stuff is always good :)

I loved Kat Banyard. I also really like Cordelia Fine's book but I did end up skipping large chunks of chapters because I found it a bit repetitive. It would quote some study and then explain how the study was flawed, and offer an alternative study. Then it would quote another and explain how this was flawed too. And another. And another which is flawed in exactly the same way, sometimes referencing a point which was made earlier in the book.

I did actually give up on it for about a year and only read the rest of it because my friend asked to borrow it. I found the later chapters were less repetitive and easier to access. I'm sure there was a reason for this, I just found it made it hard to get into for me.

Ah, fair enough - I know loads of people do. I think if you're already quite sorted, it seems to strike people as a bit crap. For me it was helpful because I definitely wasn't all sorted out, and also because for me, it described one of my previous relationships so well and helped me realize why that had upset me so much. It definitely is best for people who are not so pulled together as feminists, though, I reckon.

I heard Gail Dines speak at the RadFem Conference in London. She was fantastic. At the time I didn't know that much about porn and feminist analysis, and I learned so much just from her talk.

Yes I have changed my views a few times on things. I think that is fine. Better than being stuck in your views and not willing to consider any alternative viewpoints.

Thanks for all those book recommendations. I really like the fact that people in this pub don't assume I know what you're all talking about.

I've been lurking a lot in here but haven't posted much, a bit like sitting in the quiet corner of a pub listening to all the conversations going on, it's nice.

I came in here specially to have a rant about my friend. I mentioned something about 3yo dd2 having loads of pink things even though I have tried to avoid it. She replied with "why would you try to avoid pink? Little girls are supposed to be all about pink, it's lovely". The saddest part is that she has a 5yo girl who would never naturally be interested in pink, "girly" things but is being pushed into it by her family :(

I was at the Feminism in London conference today (anyone else?) and apparently Gail Dines is doing a conference with Stop Porn Culture in London next March. It sounds good, though slightly annoyingly the Norwegian women presenting about it gave the impression they hadn't taken the time to liaise with Object, who are doing really impressive anti-porn work here already.

LRD - could you PM me your blog? I googled the name of the mediaeval woman someone mentioned in connection with you but only found a nice but not particularly feminist blog by an American woman.

That is so sad when girls and boys are obviously pushed into things considered appropriate for their sex, when they have no interest in them. I hate seeing that.

I used this site to find good blogs. I really like some of these, although there are some I really don't. When I found a blog I liked, I looked at what blogs they recommended.

radfemreader.blogspot.co.uk/

There are also some good feminist bloggers on Tumblr as well.

It is sad isn't it? She seems to think it's perfectly fine, and she then laughs about how her dd "mothers" her ds who is 4 years older! That's the wrong way round, he's older so should be helping her with things, not her helping him tidy up, etc because she's the girl :(

Another question - how should I respond when DD asks if she looks fat? Makes me furious. I tell her she looks fit and try and instil the idea that strength and stamina are beautiful. It feels like a trap every time she says it.

Thanks for all the recommended reading - I am making a List as we speak.

Re pink: it's not the colour itself that irks me (I think I may have said as much upthread - I cannot remember what I said 5 minutes ago, never mind yesterday...), it's how all-pervasive it is and, crucially what it implies: it is pretty and meek and weak and cute and sweet and nice and mild and not-loud etc etc.
It's what is being taught by girls=pink and boys=navy/camouflage that gets my goat, not the colour (my garden is full of pink flowers including one called Naked Lady and one of my favorite colours is a bright fuchsia pink).

And breathe.

Gnawer, oh no, the 'fat' thing. I don't know if this is any consolation to you, but DS2 keeps calling himself 'fat' (and 'ugly and stupid' - none of which is true ).
Yy re emphasising health and strength and enjoyment of ones beautifully functioning body.

Ds1 does the ugly and stupid thing. What should I say to him when he calls her fat? She's not, by the way, she's a sturdy bdy type though and will never be willowy. She's also tall and quite developed for her age which contributes to her seeming big. And her best friend is tiny (half DD's weight and a good foot shorter) due to an undiagnosed medical condition so she feels big all the time. o

'Tis horrible feeling like that.
Maybe you have to find some huge friends for her so she can feel fragile and tiny ?

I distinctly remember a family holiday to Italy when I was 13. I had reached my final height (5'6''), I was quite developed and I felt so, so fat - I was mortified at being expected to wear nothing but a swimming cosy at the beach etc etc. During a recent unseasonal 'spring'clean I cam across a box of photos from the holiday and I was gorgeous - I am not showing off, I was never going to be a willowy, all-legs model, but I was slim and fit (I swam competitively at that time), had a nice waist and smooth legs and just the right amount of chest yadda, yadda. Was I able to see that at the time? Nope.
Maybe Youth is really wasted on the Young .
Or maybe I felt so ungainly and fat compared to mum who is a totally different build to me (5ft nothing, tiny shoulders, size 8-10 all her life) and who was certainly commenting on every ice cream I had....

Ah well. 4 children later and aged 47 I am even more gorgeous. On the inside and in my dreams .

What should you say to your DS1? No name calling, no taking advantage of a known weak spot, "if you cannot say anything nice, say nothing at all". All that kind of guff. But siblings are made to annoy the shit out of each other, aren't they?

At my course I overhead the woman ahaed of me in the lunch queue saying how much she enjoyed her children when she was with the ONE AT A TIME. And I just thought, amen to that, sister!

What also struck me was how at my lunch table (10 women around a round table) we ALL talked about our children, who was looking after them while we were being educated, what we were going to do with our families for the rest of the weekend etc. And I was wondering how unlikely I felt it was that the similar conversation was going on at some of the all-male tables.

D' you know, this is totally speculative, but ...

I am married to someone who is broad in the beam - I mean, ridiculously so, his skeleton is built like a brick shithouse. And he's overweight generously proportioned on top of that.

And of course small children have disproportionately large stomachs because the liver has to be larger in small children than adults. But my baby niece talks about a 'nice big tummy like uncle --'s'. And I think it is helpful that she has seen us all say 'what a nice tummy', so she thinks it is nice.

I'm sure this stops working later on, and she is only very small, but as I understand it, it is not a bad predictor of later outcomes in terms of her feeling happy, to be told she is beautiful with her sticky-out tummy and to see other adults confirming this.

Aw, but toddler tummies ARE totally adorable .
It is funny how we all want to be individuals but when young all we want is 'fit in'? Ds2 has noticed that his build is different from his brothers - he is broad and straight up-and-down. And always has been (as an aside: it's funny to think that he was born at 31 weeks and 3lbs10 ).

I read some research once that the daughters who were most unhappy with their bodies, also had mothers who were most unhappy with their bodies. So I guess it is also about not talking about any unhappiness we might feel about our own bodies.

Pacific - I have a photo of me at DD's age and I am exactly the same shape as her. Muscly legs, bit of a waist but also bit of a tummy. I look healthy and sporty. Never appreciated it at the time.

Oh, they are, pacific!

I find it very hard to restrain myself because I always want to grab her for another hug, and while she is a very huggy toddler, she currently prefers climbing up me to sit on my shoulders!

But I understand it links in - the study I saw was of children whose parents gave them the idea early on that they were too fat, tended to have problems later.

grennie I think that is absolutely it. This is really helping me think what I should do, if I ever have children!

I feel very lucky that 14yo dd1 doesn't seem to have developed any body issues that I know about. She's a little self-conscious about her height (she reached 5'8" at the age of 11 but seems to have stopped there), but she's getting happier about that now her friends are catching up. She's now getting fairly happy about the fact that she looks a few years older than 14 (I wouldn't ask her for ID in a pub, and I deal with a lot of teenagers) which could be worrying if she had a more outgoing personality.

Dd2 has a bit of an obsession with the bathroom scales and likes to weigh herself whenever she sees them. That might be because I "read" it as saying she's perfect (which she is, she's 3!)