WHY do so many (it seems) men hate and fear women?

[Hullygully]

I was thinking about this the other day. Women earn less, get killed more, are objectified blah blah we all know the stats. They are real stats, the facts are that women have it worse. So why do men fear and hate them so much that they can't bear it pointed out? The "ball-breaking" language of the 70s continues in a different form. BUT WHY?

yes it's cultural now, but the culture has arisen from the biological penis thing. Can we teach males to "feel" differently? Do they need to? Can their expectations be adjusted?

Men on this thread, would you read Sal's link and say what you think?

I liked this bit of imagined 'Man Writing': ""Janet walked her boobs across the city square. 'I can see them staring at my boobs,' she thought, boobily."

I don't think I can really give a man's view on the thread. I'm not really a typical example of them.

there is a lot of negative projection coming across in your posts. It's all very battle of the sexes.

Sorry, I don't mean to be negative. I'm just putting myself in the position of the injured party and concluding that I'd want some kind of redress (possibly even revenge?). I suppose in addition to that there is going to be a significant number of men who will be disempowered by the feminist movement achieving it's aims and that will be a shock to a lot of those who experience it. I'm not talking about oppression though, just a correction of the balance of power to 50:50.

Hully - will read the link later...

give your view then tiggy

Aha Tiggy isn't that the point? We are all individuals not representatives of our gender.

The article I linked to had lots of interesting things to say. I was uncomfortable with the bit at the end We Just Build SkyScrapers To Get in Your Pants. Surely there's a huge element of wanting to eat, too (the materialist view, simplistically)

"We Were Told That Society Owed Us a Hot Girl"
Yes. I see people being told that. But most people who I know are aware that we don't and the people doing the telling are dicks. Just because you told something again and again doesn't mean you have to believe in it.

"We're Trained from Birth to See You as Decoration"
I feel that applies to me too. Judged by looks. Whether or not I am, I feel I am.

"We Think You're Conspiring With Our Boners to Ruin Us"
That's why men should stick to being attracted to other men. Less hassle for all. More in common.

"We Feel Like Manhood Was Stolen from Us at Some Point"
I'm not a man. I'm a Tiggy! I have no interest in being manly.

"We Feel Powerless"
I feel powerless because I'm an underemployed childcare worker with bugger all money, not because of women.

"Aha Tiggy isn't that the point? We are all individuals not representatives of our gender." - Sal

"I'm not a man. I'm a Tiggy" - Tiggy

re your first point - it would be much easier to resist those messages if they were blatant. But constant & subtle streams like that are hard to identify, nevermind criticise.
Like White Christmases for example. I have had two in 36 years, kind of expect and hope for one every year though. So that expectation isn't internal is a cultural thing, and I'm not the only one to do it either. But it's very easy to identify that meme

I read the article. Many things struck me about it, and it's cultural perspective seems very American. Obvious I suppose, given the author. But overall it reads like a series of crude stereotypes based upon 'The American Dream', religious mentalism, Hollywood bullshit and the US disposition to violence as a first resort. If I attempted to discuss them all, I'd be here for hours and this discussion may descend into a row.

I don't want to do that, as this has been an interesting thread. I only posted this reply as Hully asked for some response from the men posting in here. Suffice to say, there is much I disagree with. But then, I suppose I would

Yes, it would be easier it it wasn't there in the first place, because "Won't somebody think of the stupid people!"

Particually the ones who confuse bad things always having gone on in the past with tradition. (CofE I'm looking at you!)

Interesting. I don't believe the American Dream is as foreign as it sounds tbh

trouble is loads of people are stupid though

I mean - almost 50% of the population are below average intelligence

Okay, read the article and I'm inclined to agree with Chotter and Tiggy. It's all a bit "trying to justify why I act like I do" without any serious critique of the messages being sent out by the culture. I mean, if we all took advertising at face value then, yeah, I suppose I could see some merit in the article, but we don't. I know the majoirty of advertising is rubbish designed to sell a product, and I know the culture described in the article is rubbish too.

As Tiggy says, it's the stupid people who use this to justify how they behave and they are going to behave stupidly no matter what...

Sal - I don't think the 49.9999999% of the population you refer to are all stupid! Need to move quite a bit further donw the bell shaped curve to get to the stupid ones!

Regarding the meme thing, I take that point, the subliminal message thing can be very insipid, but equally it's very easy to dismiss based on the facts that you've helpfully provided: 2/36 white Christmases! It's not a real expectation and anyone truly believing it is going to be disappointed and eventually learn that it's based on mistruths (at least in my geographic location anyway). If they don't then we're back to Tiggy's stupid people again.

Say what you think, chotter. There is no rowing allowed. It's boring, I'm, interested in discussion, not rowing and point scoring.

I was only joking about the 49.999% KeepItHidden.

re The White Christmases - I only used that example because the disconnect between the reality and the cultural 'hype' is so clear, and it's very easy to measure your own statistics (to put it rather grandly).
You can apply that to any cultural message. Of course you have to recognise the message first, and the delivery systems, and impact and role, if any, in creating expecations.

If you don't think anything in that artcle explains the problem, how do you answer OP's question?

White Christmas works well as an example, I think - you can want and (secretly) expect something even when you know rationally it isn't likely, or that in reality the way things would have to be to make it so would make you unhappy in other ways.

I tend to think of quiet misogny (and it's opposite) as being so culturally ingrained that it's almost unnoticeable to those doing it. Ignorance I suppose. Misogny is definitely propped up by women as well as men in many ways, so it can be easy to think the majority view is correct and that Misogny is only related to bigger things (like fgm) that most people are against.

I also think there is an element of being worried about what will happen to you, personally, if things change. Just basic fear of the unknown. So again, not intentionally malicious to start with.

Sal - I was going to answer along similar lines to TiWi - i.e. Ignorance, apathy and sheer laziness. I try to think the best of humans as a species and I'm reluctant to believe that 50% of the population are deliberately malicious of the other 50%.

Having said that, I've read an awful lot on MN relationships and feminism and there are a lot of nasty stories to be told and many behaviour traits that can't be explained by the ignorance, apathy and laziness I mentioned, so may be there is some (much?) truth in the literal "women hating" that is defined here.

I can't empathise with the hate, only the fear, though I'm afraid and relieved to say.

Okay, first point in the article - 'we are told that society owed us a hot girl.....we males are each owed, and will eventually be awarded, a beautiful woman.'

The author then goes on to say that we are taught this via every comic, TV series, film, video game and song. Utter tripe. I read Marvel comics in the 70's; I played Space Invaders and Asteroids; I watched Star Wars, and I saw cool laser swords and pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo, and cool space ships. The kissing was frankly unwelcome. I watched Space 1999 and the Invisible Man, where the protagonists were in long-term relationships. I grew up with punk music, so romance was sadly lacking . An interesting aside about Office and a Gentleman - didn't Gere's sidekick commit suicide? I believe a woman dumped him after finding out he had failed Pilot School, so wouldn't be able to provide her with the WaG lifestyle she craved? Could be wrong, it was never my favourite film, but I notice the author skipped that little detail.

I found the article full of bunk like those examples. It is the kind of article I would write if I wanted to curry favour with feminists without wishing to spark any debate whatsoever. I found it disappointing.

I think some men hate and fear women because they cannot make us want them or want to be with them; acknowledgement of their own inadequacies is too painful for them so easier to hate/fear the thing that brings that realisation.

That and the issue of "ownership". Many men still see women as possessions or toys that have to belong to a man. They don't like it when we're as strong as they are. And we are.

Norman Mailer quote;

'Of course I'm sexist, a man never broke my heart.'

Just thought I'd chuck that one in whilst I was passing.

"Men on this thread, would you read Sal's link and say what you think?"

As far as the content,none of it rang true for me or related to any of my experiences. Really strained efforts to make links that didn't seem to be there imho. For others it might have all rung very true but I thought it was a piece completely sure of it's own importance and relevance when it was all just half-thought out theories and rambling.
As for the style I found it a bit of a chore to get through as I didn't think it was especially well written, but that's wholly subjective.

Can I ask a question related to Hully's question in the OP? Do people think that men have different motivations for a.) their violent actions towards women and b.) their violent actions towards other men?

I looked back up thread to Sal's link but only found a link to another MN thread from 2010. Is there another?