This got me thinking

[GetStuffezd]

I was in a pub the other night and there was a group of youngish women in their early twenties and one gay chap who was extremely camp and seemed to be "acting the part" if you get me. He was very much centre of attention. At one point he said to one of the women, "and you can move that useless flap of leather you call a cunt and get us a drink." Cue hilarity from group.

I honestly feel like I've aged somewhere along the line because I felt a bit cats-bummy, which I NEVER do!

It just got me thinking. This guy could only have got away with such a comment because of the persona he presents. A man who came across as more "macho" would have been slaughtered for it! Also, the reaction of the women made me think. Again, maybe I'm getting old but I just wouldn't find that kind of comment funny any more. Maybe I'm over thinking, maybe it's not even a gender issue, but it got me thinking. Please don't think I'm in any way homophobic, I'm 100% for everyone being able to identify as they choose. I must admit though, that loud people acting in a camp way do grate on me.
Any thoughts?

You're right, it's peoples perception. Although one point that is stressed in regards to "isms" is that it doesn't have to be the people directly involved that classify it, so if you thought it was sexist, it was - no amount of camp will disguise that.

As you say, if a young man had gone up & said that in a loud Essex accent, the pub would have been a sea of cats bums.... And as for the loud camp thing, I really enjoy it, it's almost an art form - but it does get tiresome (I'm a viewer here, not a participant!!)

I can imagine in certain contexts a young straight man getting away with exactly the same - but it'd be based on the same premise, that this is a really witty form of transgression boring old gender roles by parodying misogyny, which is, like, hilarious and shows how far we've come.

It's not dissimilar to people who make deeply amusing racist jokes in an 'ironic' way, but would hasten to explain to boring fuddy-duddies like me that it's ok, because their black friend finds it so funny too.

I don't think you are being homophobic, but I would trace this sort of thing back to the 'gender studies' bunch, whose politics are pretty much incompatible with second wave feminism.

I think it's bog-standard misogyny.

Interesting to hear other people's perspectives, thanks.

I don't think you are being homophobic, but I would trace this sort of thing back to the 'gender studies' bunch, whose politics are pretty much incompatible with second wave feminism.

I don't understand the suggestion here - could you explain? I hope it's not a suggestion that my views are in any anti-feminist?

Sorry, I don't follow how it could be a suggestion of that.

This sort of thing that you overheard, and the view that it's somehow clever and witty to get away with what is (as basil says) plain misogyny, seems to me to be related to the whole ethos of gender studies, which has become very fashionable. There seems to be a generation who think that anything done with 'irony' is excusable. They have an image of what someone sexist (or racist, or homophobic) is, and it's very different from them. So they think when they say things like this, it must be a form of parodying sexism, and therefore funny and transgressive.

I've sat through people telling me, quite earnestly, that this sort of action is transgressing the established paradigms of gender activity, and therefore is somehow liberating.

I think this is bullshit.

Ah I see - sorry, sleep-fuzzed head not doing that logical processing thing!
There seems to be a generation who think that anything done with 'irony' is excusable
This - I think is what grated me most. It's the whole "Yeah, as a joke " idea.
On a slightly different note, I've just done a cats bum face in the mirror and it's truly hideous - must not do in public!

I'd quite happily gurn unappealingly at them.

It sounds vile tbh

In the context I'd probably rely on the judgement and reaction of the group of women it was said to, who obviously didn't think it was woman-hating, rather than usurping their sensitivities - snatched snippets of conversations are tricky.
A dear friend of mine was a little similar (without the loudness) and pushed all sorts of boundaries and conventions, as a second nature.

Presumably the OP is female, too, and did think it was woman-hating. A pub is a public space.

Incidentally, I think this stuff about 'usurping their sensitivities' is all a bit silly. Would you also think it would be terribly, terribly rude to have got cross with dear old South Africa during apartheid, because after all, it might be usurping their sensibilities to protest? Or would you say today that it's really not on to have an opinion Russia's legitimized homophobia, because it might be usurping their sensibilities?

It's not pushing boundaries (which sounds nicely revolutionary and exciting) - it's just misogyny.

The OP wasn't the intended audience, who laughed - she overheard.
But thanks for the additional, tangential, silly and entertaining but wayward trip to far far away land.

She overheard, in a public space. Which is the point.

I'm sorry if the examples are too difficult to take in - they just seemed obvious parallels to me, which I thought might help you follow what was going on.

If you prefer, think about it like this. Why do you think it's not ok for the OP to have a view, but it's ok for you to pretend you know what these women (whom you didn't even seen) must have felt?

I have been in that sort of group, as obviously other women on this thread have been. And it is actually quite difficult to challenge someone who talks like that. It's much easier to laugh and be part of the in-crowd who all think it's so terribly funny to be misogynistic.

That is a dynamic that is fundamental to oppression of all kinds, which is why I compared to a couple of other situations.

You don't look to the people who're the butt of discriminatory jokes and ask them 'did you enjoy that joke' while the people making the jokes are looking on - obviously. So, inevitably, we end up discussing this stuff at a remove, in terms of experiences we had in the past, or things we overheard, so we can think about why this dynamic exists in our society.

I find it sad that you simply want to tell us all you know better and we're wrong to want to talk about it.

Or do you honestly believe that there is such a fundamental difference between women being discriminated against and any other kind of discrimination, that it's 'silly' to compare them at all?

"I find it sad that you simply want to tell us all you know better and we're wrong to want to talk about it" - just..what??

where on earth is there evidence of any of that? The OP describes a circumstance and offers it out for opinion. It's even sadder that someone of your intelligence comes out with that pathetic little attempt at manipulation to sideline a view you disagree with.

In your posts, where else?

Thanks for a nicely backhanded compliment.

Can you try to get it through your head that I disagree, in this instance, because I find your views quite unpleasantly misogynistic and entitled, rather than because I want to 'manipulate' anything.

I think sexism can be compared to racism and homophobia. Quite why saying so has sparked off this overreaction, I am not sure.

See, it wasn't a backhanded compliment. It was a genuine one and a sense of the absurd that you'd produce such a dishonest line.
Overreaction? again. Okaaay.
I'll happily step away from this table tennis scenario.

How kind of you, then, please, keep them coming, I begin to blush at your sheer flattery!

I must point out it wasn't dishonesty led me not to realize you were being complimentary, though ...

It is possible that they are a group of people who trade insults and the woman it was directed at makes equally awful remarks to him. The point is surely that they were in a pub where other people can over hear, so he shouldn't have said it.

The comment sounds very misogynist to me as I read it as the guy calling her vagina useless because he is not interested in it. So her body is useless to him because he doesn't want to use it, nevermind that having a body with functioning sexual organs is useful to her.

I agree gay men get away with things because they're seen as harmless and feminine so they couldn't possibly be misogynists right?
But straight guys also get away with things because they're just being guys and women who complain are too sensitive etc.

"one gay chap who was extremely camp and seemed to be "acting the part" if you get me ... This guy could only have got away with such a comment because of the persona he presents ... I must admit though, that loud people acting in a camp way do grate on me."

His comment was horrible, but you do sound a bit homophobic to be honest.

I do think the comment was misogynistic. It's vile.

But it is the case that camp behaviour is associated with homosexuality when men do it. The way you've phrased it does sound homophobic. I don't really understand the 'acting the part' bit.

I really, really resent the suggestion of homophobia. I totally stand by the "acting the part" comment as that is exactly the way he presented himself. I have gay friends who do exactly the same thing. I will spend a day with them doing XYZ then when we meet in the evening with other gay men and they absolutely act differently and "play the part" by become a lot more camp and making lots of pithy comments. Luckily I can tell them when it's becoming annoying and they don't think I'm being homophobic!

That's because they are your friends and care whether or not you are personally annoyed.

The equivalent to your post would be something like this... 'I went out with my Northern, working class friend. She was the centre of attention and was really acting up her Northerness with lots of hamming up her accent and using lots of Geordie dialect, then she made a vile, racist 'joke.'

Now, it is the case that there are particular aspects of racism that show themselves differently in Northern culture than Southern culture, and the way that manifests itself needs discussing. Just as there are particular kinds of sexism that manifest differently in gay and straight culture, and that needs discussing. But making out a person enjoying their culture is acting a part or should behave in another way because it grates on others is irrelevant to that, and sounds prejudiced, and detracts from the point you are making.

But making out a person enjoying their culture is acting a part or should behave in another way because it grates on others is irrelevant to that, and sounds prejudiced, and detracts from the point you are making.

Totally disagree. Whatever "culture" someone may choose to identify with, the comment in question wasn't acceptable, IMO. My original question was why it was OK from this speaker as opposed to someone who presented themselves differently.

And as an original southern-born who's spent most of her adult life in the NE I don't accept racism anywhere, "cultural" or not.

that needs discussing
Well the aim of the thread was to discuss. I don't claim to have all the answers but I genuinely enjoy reading other people's takes on things. I really don't expect to be told I'm homophobic by someone who has no clue about my life.