Are the 2 females who were in tonight's Apprentice final 'strong female role models?

[Sarahlundismyhero]

There is a good article in the Times supplement today about this.. What do you think? Should young girls be looking up to this type of women and aspire to be like them? The way they have made themselves look physically is such a shame.

They claim to be intelligent and
I have
no doubt they are in many ways, (either academically and savvy from a business-sense perhaps) but they are not so clever NOT to rise above the growing trend to conform to the false eyelash/ Botox/ plastic look that is becoming more and more popular.

I like to look good, wear some make-up, pay attention to what I'm wearing but up to a point. To me these women are not fighting the case for feminism. In fact, I think it's the opposite

Can you link to pics for those of us who didn't watch?

www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jul/17/apprentice-2013-final-live-blog/

Oops don't know how to do the link thing sorry

[[http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jul/17/apprentice-2013-final-live-blog/
Guardian Link]]

Thanks bunnylion my saviour

In an idealistic world it would have been nice if the final 2 women didn't appear to model their looks on barbie, or an inflatable sex doll as my sweet DH commented on the winner.

But unfortunately I would imagine that a regular looking woman would have to be out-of-this-world-brilliant to have the same opportunity, in both business and in the show, as these two or to a regular looking man.

That said, all women are individuals and if these two spend a great deal of time concerned about their appearance then that's their prerogative. I don't think their intention is to be a role model for young women or to prove anything to the world, they are just following their own path.

See previous thread from last month, when there were more of them still in the show:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1767234-The-Apprentice

There is an argument that this kind of analysis (forcing the role model discussion on every successful woman) does feminism and the cause of female advancement a disservice. We don't make successful men into representative samples of their entire gender, why would we do the same for a woman?

Yes I know the scrutiny is natural because it would be better if a successful woman got there solely on her brains or non-visual talents, but (a) it's reality telly, and (b) we don't bat an eyelid when slightly crap men make it, why should we when women do?

Regardless of whether they are role models or not, this article referring to Leah Totten as "Miss Totten" five times infuriate me

I think its very positive that there were three women as the top three. its a tv programme so you will notice that none of the applicants, male or female were "unattractive". I think that leah's business idea of trying to standardize non surgical beauty treatments ethically is a step forward. realistically people want these treatments so surely its better that its provided by and overseen by a qualified doctor? I cant see how two strong women starting businesses can possibly harm feminism.

Baffled by the BBC story referring to her as "Miss Totton". Why not Dr? Alan Sugar is Lord Sugar and Luisa is Ms, so it seems doubly incongruous.

I don't particularly like the way they look and find Luisa annoying beyond words ... but they've both achieved a lot in their time. I read something about Luisa and naked pics, and would be disappointed to learn that any money from that funded the start-up of her baking business. Other than that, though I don't like them personally and don't think the promotion of cosmetic procedures such as botox is necessarily a good thing, I do admire their drive and think there's a case for them being strong role models. Of a sort.

Given Leah's age, she hasn't actually completed her medical training. At 23, she would have just finished a 5-year medicine degree, and not done her F1/F2 training (or whatever it is called in Ireland). She also claims to have done some private cosmetic work qualification, which, unless she did it concurrently with the final year of her medical degree (difficult and unlikely), means that she didn't actually complete her MBChB.

I smell a rat with that one.

I've not really enjoyed this series of The Apprentice. It's been like an over-long episode of Dragon's Den, and the constant low-level sexism has rankled. At least on Dragon's Den, the contestants (and the Dragons) are from all sorts of business backgrounds, and are not all telegenic young people with "interesting" pasts.

They are two very strong women. Leah Totten is a 24yo practicing MD. She graduated in 2011. She began her medical degree when she was 16years old. Luisa Zissman is a 25yo single mother and business woman. Their intelligence, skills and drive got them to the final of The Apprentice. Their intelligence, skills and drive got them to where they are today. And they are women. Is this not what feminists have been campaigning for?

I am so disheartened that their appearances have been so scrutinized by some feminists. The amount of feminist threads and blogs devoted to their shoes, hair, clothes and make-up is making me feel very uncomfortable. Is this not what feminists have been campaigning against for such a long time?

There have been quite a few threads about why women don't identify as feminist. I think the attacks on these two strong, intelligent women from feminists answer that question.

You can't start a medical degree until you are 18. Again, strong waft of eau de rattus.

We also have to remember that this is only very tangential to the real world of business. It isn't a business deal, it's a reality TV show.

Her uni are crowing about her.

Smallclanger, do you not think that if she had lied about being a practicing doctor the press would be all over it? I am finding the attitudes of some feminists to these two women confusing indeed

Gillian McKeith got away with it for ages.

Feminism is nothing to do with defending bullshitters.

How on earth do you start any degree never mind a medical degree at 16?

I know someone who's a Dr. No experience or specialist training in cosmetic surgery but she does "botox parties" as a side line to the day job. Her normal doctoring is nothing to do with botox or cosmetic surgery but she went on a one day course.

I've never seen the programme so can't comment specifically but in general I would prefer it if every woman of note was not held up to be a -ve or +ve role model. I don't want role models, I want representation and visibility. It happens to men too but usually it is confined to actors and sports personalities whereas with women it's broader.

She graduated as an MD in 2011 from the University of East Anglia, and has been working in the NHS as an A&E doctor. Had she been lying, we all would have seen the fallout at the Interview Stage of the programme. It would have made for great TV.

You say feminism is not about defending bullshitters Smallclanger, is it about minimizing effort, intelligence and achievement if the woman concerned is young and well groomed?

Why skyler Leah isn't married so miss is correct.

Where have I said anything specific about her looks, Dione?

My suspicion about her credentials is actually nothing to do with feminism. In RL, I meet lots of male bullshitters and am suspicious of them.

The other option is that she is fibbing about her age.

The OP talks about their looks. That's why I commented as I did. You talked about the winner's possible deception. So is that feminism nowadays? Two young, well groomed women have been successful in a competition and in their lives and for some reason most feminist commentary is negative. Much has been about their looks (especially unpleasant when we think of recent cases regarding Mary Beard and John Inverdale).

Smallclanger would you have similar doubts about the academic claims of the winner had it not been a young, well groomed woman?

A sorry state of affairs indeed.

I laughed at "eau de rattus" clanger

Yes, in Northern Ireland medical grads do the F1 and F2 training too. She's from NI, but did her degree and works in England.