Male feminists and porn

[AmyFarrahFowlerCooper]

Can a man who believes he is a feminist be interested in porn? Or does that kind of negate his believing he is a feminist?

I think you can still be a feminist and have an interest in pornograpy. Pornography by definition is simply watching two people engage in explicit sexual behaviour. It is natural to be interested in these things no matter your gender or age etc.

There is a big market for, and a lot of material containing normal couples having very normal sex. This i don't see an issue with. It's normal sex wit a camera in the room. It is an additional interest of theirs that is sharing their material and viewing others.

I think it gets more complicated when you look at what the actual porn industry is and it's treatment of women, and in some i've seen gay males.

Some of the creepiest men I have ever met have been anti-porn 'male feminists'. IMO unsolicited anti-porn ranting from a man is a fairly big red flag for misogyny: men like this are very keen on slutshaming and blaming the female performers for what they perceive as the wrongness of pornography.

As to the difference between 'porn' and 'erotica' it's either wholly subjective or it's discussed as the difference between words and pictures. And I could derail the thread for hours about erotica and 50 Shades and the problems faced by any woman wanting to make sexually explicit entertainment media aimed at women. and then go on and on about My Book, of course

So hang on if a man entertains anti-pornography rhetoric he's mysoginistic, so we should leave the subject unexamined for fear of being labeled mysoginistic? How then can we move the discussion forward if such is the case?

For what it's worth I do get where you are coming from. Men with attitudes such as you describe without a doubt exist, but I think in a frank and honest discussion it pays to give the benefit of the doubt to those engaged in that debate until such time as their true colours are shown.

a man or woman can believe in equality between the sexes, but still really enjoy looking at sexual images of people who have consented to having their images shared.

I don't think you need to wait long before you find the men SGB describes showing their true colours.

Most lefty-boys are either totally cool with porn - what's the problem, you're nearly equal now, they're sex workers who consented and all they need is to join a union - or they're anti it because they regard the women who participate in it as less human than themselves, whores not good socialist women.

Their true colours usually show quite early on in any discussion of this topic.

Well, not much room for manoeuvre there; if you are a lefty and you like porn you are a misogynist, and if you don't like porn you are.....erm, a misogynist.

I am a lefty. I believe in redistribution of wealth, a welfare state and the right to healthcare and education that is free at point of delivery. I must hate women.

I think it's perfectly possible to like porn and not be a misogynist. Getting turned on by sexual display is not remotely evil in itself. Making the effort to seek out what might be called 'fairtrade' porn is always an option. Fairtrade porn does exist, it just needs more effort to get hold of it, because the main distributing bodies are not so keen on it.

Hope you don't mind me adding my opinion.
I have watched some porn and I didn't find it sexually stimulating or interesting for the most part. It was scary and made me feel sick. Most of it was women being treated roughly, choked and hurt. Abusive language is normal.
That's mainstream porn. If you go to any of the big free porn websites which have a selection of free clips from all over the Internet then this rough and horrible stuff is average fayre.

Nah that's not mainstream, that's what the anti porn brigade want people to believe everyone is looking at.
Check out the most popular sites on Alexa:

www.alexa.com/topsites/category/Top/Adult,

yeah there are a couple of free video hosting sites at 1 and 2 but the majority are softcore sites, mostly web cams, also looking at freeones at number 8 for example, their most viewed item with 15 million views is 'Nikki Simms' or 'Next door Nikki' - definitely softcore stuff.

StickEmUp ^My DH doesn't like porn but I don't think it's anything to do with the cast, he's more turned off at the idea of watching other people having sex. He thinks it's private.

And a bit weird about looking at another man's penis, to be frank.

Interested to hear what others think of that.^

So what's his views on porn featuring only women or porn where people aren't having sex and doing solo stuff? I reckon his view is a common one with regards to not wanting to see other blokes and hence why softcore stuff is very popular as i pointed out above.

There are lots of sites though, the one you mention is only one.

It's from my own experience of looking at Internet porn and from talking to make friends and ex partners about it.
The general gist is that the soft core solo stuff doesn't work for people who have viewed a lot of porn.

Blowjobs feature heavily - almost always rough.
Things like bukake etc.. That's not hardcore nowadays, it's ubiquitous

Well if you check out most the other sites on that list, they are predominately softcore. Web cam sites are massively popular with 5 of them in the top 20 and they mostly feature solo performers.

The general gist is that the soft core solo stuff doesn't work for people who have viewed a lot of porn.

I don't think that is the case for most people though, i think that people tend to stick to what they like. It's like everything else there will always be some people who go overboard but the vast majority will do things in moderation. I am also struggling to find much research to indicate your statement to be true, other than biased religious sites.

Things like bukake etc.. That's not hardcore nowadays, it's ubiquitous

But that is still a very niche fetish with not many titles/ performers featuring/ performing that. There is no way that is standard fare.
It's not featuring in this worldwide survey of searches either:

www.pornmd.com/sex-search

The top ten porn searches for the UK were.

1. British
2. Indian
3. Milf
4. Teen
5. Lesbian
6. Mature
7. POV
8. Lisa Ann
9. Squirt

10. Amatuer

Ffs, do you really think we need you to guide us and once we've done a little Google search our womanly brains will be convinced?

What sort of arrogance you have, to claim we don't really know what it is we object to.

That the number four search term on your list "teen" doesn't really warm the cockles of my heart, is that the sort of oh so nice porn you're in to?

Good post, gosh.

I really, really like this post about clueless left wing blokes and feminism:
www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2013/07/why_this_class-conscious

@libertarianj, I'm not sure this is a thread about defending porn, but wether or not it is that Top 10 doesn't seem to preclude mysoginistic material. One could have this "ethical" or softcore porn in most of those words of course, so I am not trying to prove the reverse. I'm simply pointing out that that top 10 doesn't really answer the salient point. That a majority of pornography contains material that plays to particular power fantasies that involve the reduction of women to objects. Therefore can any man who indulges in consuming such material consider themselves a feminist?

Now we have raised the point that perhaps sexual acts when viewed are not in and of themselves sexist or mysoginistic, but even when you look at the relatively tame end of the spectrum, page 3 say you can still see this rather nasty reduction of women seen in the inane comments often attributed to the models.

Perhaps in relation to the OP you feel that perhaps some kinds of porn is acceptable, and still consider oneself a feminist, and maybe you have a point. After all there are women who identify as feminists (third wave I think, but I stand to be corrected) who are pro porn insomuch as they are pro woman's choice, but I suspect one would have to know a hell of a lot more about feminism than I to advance that argument effectively.

Would it be possible for you and I to meet in the middle somewhere, for the purposes of this discussion? I don't think there is much of value that can be discussed if either of us adopts an inflexible position. I can accept that there are major vested interests that want to bias the discussion, both the porn industry wanting to carry on unregulated, or religious or conservative groups that want it blanket banned. In any case just throwing in one's lot with just one side means we're in danger of missing the truth.

Libitarianj, what you find within each sub category that you mention is not lovely softcore and fluffy. It's teens or Asian or whatever kind of women being aggressively treated.

here is a study showing that over 80% of popular pornography involves aggression.
It's from 2010 but I doubt much has changed for the better.

GoshAnneGorilla That the number four search term on your list "teen" doesn't really warm the cockles of my heart, is that the sort of oh so nice porn you're in to?

Just posting the facts, no need to shoot the messenger, also probably a popular search term with er... teenagers, maybe?

FrameyMcFrame here is a study showing that over 80% of popular pornography involves aggression.
It's from 2010 but I doubt much has changed for the better.

Ah isn't that the study that cherry picked some rough scenes from a selection of DVD's and passed them off as mainstream? This has already been comprehensibly debunked. Also why do we need some study based on a mere 300 + scenes when i have just demonstrated what is actually popular from Alexa stats which covers millions of scenes.

Dervel That a majority of pornography contains material that plays to particular power fantasies that involve the reduction of women to objects. Therefore can any man who indulges in consuming such material consider themselves a feminist?

Not sure we can ever meet in the middle when you make massive assumptions like that without any valid facts to back up these claims.
Also to pick up on one of your earlier posts what did you mean by this?:

I'm not sure if this is off topic, but perhaps it gives a hint to where human sexuality has gone off-piste, and by extension where pornography goes wrong

So you really think human sexuality has gone off-piste? How do you come to this conclusion? or is it the fact you don't approve of sexual diversity now that people have come out of the closet about a lot of things?

Ah, so women being treated as fucktoys is sexual diversity?

You don't seem to understand that the objection many of us have to pornography is that far from being "diverse" it's appalling treatment if women dressed for the sole purpose of men's sexual gratification.

I would be intrigued as to what you would consider to be "valid facts" who is the judge of that validity - is it you?

Your arrogance, yet again is a very poor advert for men who watch porn.

where has that study been debunked Libetarianj? I only see it being quoted in lots of well respected publications and by people whose judgement I respect.

You say;
'Also why do we need some study based on a mere 300 + scenes when i have just demonstrated what is actually popular from Alexa stats which covers millions of scenes.'

But you're not bothering to answer or recognise the point that 'Asian' or 'Milf' categories don't preclude them from having aggressive and misogynistic material within.

I can't believe soemone would post a list of popular porn searches and not see that terms like;

Teen, Indian, MILF, lesbian, amateur, etc are as offensive as fuck.

Women are individuals, not wank categories based on their age, skin colour, ethnicity, male gazeified sexuality, etc. Novel concept I know

I actually PMSL at this piece of deluded nonsense;

"GoshAnneGorilla That the number four search term on your list "teen" doesn't really warm the cockles of my heart, is that the sort of oh so nice porn you're in to?

Just posting the facts, no need to shoot the messenger, also probably a popular search term with er... teenagers, maybe?"

"Teen" is a popular search for adult males who like to see girls who look underage be fucked by adult men. "Teen" is the same thing as "barely legal" which is a disgusting predatory term.

And the prize for the most astoundingly arrogant non-contribution goes to:

"why do we need some study based on a mere 300 + scenes when i have just demonstrated what is actually popular from Alexa stats which covers millions of scenes."

I am actually laughing out loud.

"Women are individuals, not wank categories based on their age, skin colour, ethnicity, male gazeified sexuality, etc."

Now you're just being hysterical. Try and see the bigger picture.

Or something.