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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male feminists and porn

162 replies

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper · 15/07/2013 11:09

Can a man who believes he is a feminist be interested in porn? Or does that kind of negate his believing he is a feminist?

OP posts:
curlew · 19/07/2013 13:44

You're somehow equating porn with car ownership? For some people car ownership is an essential. For many others life would be very difficult without one.

Nobody actually needs porn. I think my diamond analogy down thread is a better one. There might be "ethical" diamonds, but since you can't tell by looking, I'll not be buying one. No hardship- it's a luxury I can well do without. Porn is the same.

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 19/07/2013 13:54

Some people - disturbingly - wouldn't see that argument either. I was quite seriously informed by a total idiot that if you were engaged without a diamond ring, and the Home Office investigated the marriage (which was quite possible since DH is from one of those places where sham marriages aren't unheard of), then they wouldn't believe it was real. Hmm

Yes, seriously.

It is amazing how much effort is put into making us believe that all these money-spinners are essentials (and yes, porn is a huge money spinner).

garlicagain · 19/07/2013 14:14

Blimey, LRD, that's bonkers! All the same, it's just a bureaucratic hoop, innit. Wear a £10 engagement ring when you go to the Immigration, or borrow one.

I think the OP was too cut'n'dried. I'm "interested" in porn and can find it sexually stimulating even if it's the 'wrong' sort. Being a feminist, I don't watch it or seek it out, but the inner recesses of my brain are interested in sex, not politics. My forebrain is interested in porn as an aspect of gender politics.

But a person who specifically uses porn for sexual gratification is not a feminist, no. Or, perhaps more precisely, is a 'pale pink' feminist.

libertarianj · 19/07/2013 14:25

You're somehow equating porn with car ownership? For some people car ownership is an essential. For many others life would be very difficult without one.

nah, that wasn't my point. I wasn't saying which one is more essential. I was talking about how they are tackled.
i.e If you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring all porn should be banned then you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist. However if you went in with the promoting ethical porn approach, then people may actually listen and it may get people thinking a bit.

curlew · 19/07/2013 14:29

So we have to pretend that we think porn is all right really, so that we don't upset the men?

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 19/07/2013 14:34

Yes, it was a bit mad, garlic. Grin

I would have thought most people find porn sexually stimulating, though? I mean, why on earth wouldn't we?

To extend the analogy further - I don't have to believe diamonds aren't sparkly just because I'm worried about blood diamonds. I can accept they are sparkly and gorgeous (well, actually I think they're a bit meh, but you know ...), and also think I shouldn't buy them.

lib - sorry, but you do realize that if you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring that all anti-porn feminists are wrong, you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist? However, if you went in with any kind of rational response instead, people might actually listen to you, and you might get people thinking a bit.

I do hope that advice helps and doesn't come across as massively patronizing, or as if I've not stopped to read threads on this before. That would be embarrassing! Blush

garlicagain · 19/07/2013 15:36

Good lord, I wasn't suggesting my brain is special Grin Yes, it's usual to find porn sexually stimulating.

It's less usual to examine the nature and provenance of the porn, making a considered choice on whether to seek it out for sexual stimulation. I'm sure everybody on this thread would like everyone to do so. I'm theoretically in favour of ethical porn for this reason: people find it easier to select a no-harm option than to deny themselves completely - but am a bit depressed by the lack of availability, quality and verifiability.

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 19/07/2013 15:43

No, I know you weren't!

I was rambling a bit (as I do). I just meant, I find it so odd that many people do seem to imagine that anyone who doesn't think porn is ethical, must actually be responding sexually in a different way from the norm.

In some imaginary, post-revolution world I can believe we'd have 'ethical porn', but I don't see the sense in risking it in the world we have.

garlicagain · 19/07/2013 16:05

Ahhh ... you mean we're frigid Wink

SinisterSal · 19/07/2013 16:27

Or drugs - you can be anti drugs and still accept you'd get high if you took a line of coke.

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 19/07/2013 16:30

That's a good analogy.

Beachcomber · 20/07/2013 01:53

If there is a man who believes, in an innocent sort of a way, that women are equal and treats individual women as equals in his eyes (I think that there are many men like this) then I think that such a man can watch porn and find that doing so doesn't conflict with his ideas that women are equal. Because he doesn't know of, isn't interested in or doesn't understand the political analysis that underpins feminism.

Clearly this hypothetical man is blind to his privilege that enables him to reconcile a belief in women's humanity with an enjoyment of porn.

With regards to what you said here Buffy, yes he is blind to his privilege but he is also guilty of 'othering' women.

And, for a lot of men, there will be double othering going on. The reconciling can only happen within a cultural framework of othering women as the sex class, and with certain women forming the (doubly othered) subgroup of the porn sex class. We see exactly this sort of attitude with prostitution (which is not surprising given that as I said earlier, porn is simply filmed prostitution).

If you asked the average male porn consumer if they would be happy with the idea of their wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/etc being in porn, they would say no. If you asked them how they would feel about themselves being treated like women are treated in porn they probably wouldn't even have a proper understanding of what they were being asked.

It is just plain old fashioned woman as other + madonna/whore complex. Which is clearly illustrated in the etymology of the word pornography.

Dervel · 20/07/2013 04:50

I think your headed in the right direction beach. It is these double standards, and outmoded thought processes that need tackling, but not just in regards to porn, but in all aspects of men's attitudes towards sex. Although as others have pointed out women may have things they need to look to also. I am just more familiar with men's thought processes on the subject.

I am inclined to canvass my gay mates on the subject as obviously there is no second gender to marginalise, and perhaps the homosexual males attitude towards sex may hold some keys that could be applied to us straight ones.

garlicagain · 20/07/2013 05:09

Hmmm, you may be walking on quicksand there, Dervel. One of the less well-advertised truths of male homosexuality is that the vast majority of gay men are promiscuous, even when in long-term committed relationships, and to degrees that would be considered reckless by most straight women and men. I can confidently generalise about that - and, less confidently, report that gay men of my acquaintance seem to objectify both women and gay men.

Not trying to put you off, btw - it will be interesting to hear what you learn :)

libertarianj · 20/07/2013 08:41

lib - sorry, but you do realize that if you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring that all anti-porn feminists are wrong, you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist? However, if you went in with any kind of rational response instead, people might actually listen to you, and you might get people thinking a bit.

I haven't gone in with a sledgehammer though, unlike you i have tried to find some middle ground and hence my discussion of things such as feminist porn. All you have done is say 'no porn is bad end of' This totalitarian attitude may get you a few pats on the back over here but in real life it will get you nowhere.

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 20/07/2013 08:43

You think your attitude didn't come across as a blunt sledgehammer? Whoops!

And no, if you read my posts, I haven't said 'no, porn is bad, end of'. I've actually explained my views. Smile

If you struggle to understand them, denying they exist is probably not the way forward. In the real world, you need to listen as well as to spout your preconceived ideas.

libertarianj · 20/07/2013 09:08

yeah you have explained why you believe 'porn is bad end of'. You haven't said how you would apply that to real life or how you would change peoples attitudes. I take it you want to change the status quo? or maybe you just like moaning?

LRDYaDumayuIThink · 20/07/2013 09:17

You didn't ask. Nor did the OP.

But feel free to start another thread.

I'll take a moment to snigger at the irony of the pro-porn lobby complaining about people who 'like moaning'. Grin

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 20/07/2013 09:36

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BasilBabyEater · 20/07/2013 10:02

Arf at some of the posts on here.

To answer question, yes I think men who believe they are feminists can be interested in porn.

But then, I think men who believe they are feminists, or in sympathy with feminist aims, can also be domestic abusers or even rapists.

Feminism can mean anything men want it to mean. Grin

libertarianj · 20/07/2013 21:50

I'll take a moment to snigger at the irony of the pro-porn lobby complaining about people who 'like moaning'. grin

Grin loving your comeback there. Although i reckon most people watch with the sound turned down Wink

Sausageeggbacon · 23/07/2013 19:49

Interesting podcast on feminist porn here, of course the view is different to a lot of people who post here.

Dervel · 24/07/2013 05:27

I have a particular chap in mind to talk to about this garlicagain. He is always remarkably insightful and wise. I am not sure I'm particularly against promiscuity in and of itself, as long as people are honest and safe about it. I can't abide all the smoke, mirrors and deception that seem to surround a lot of promiscuous people.

For what it's worth I think porn stands to damage men as well as women. Although I appreciate that is not the purpose of this thread, but I do believe only healthy, respectful cross-gender lines debate will help us make thing better.

I don't think I "get" feminism myself quite yet, and perhaps I never will. However there are a great many impossible things that are still nevertheless very worthwhile in at least making the attempt.

I'm not sure if this is off topic, but perhaps it gives a hint to where human sexuality has gone off-piste, and by extension where pornography goes wrong: I am interested in switching career to psychology and psychoanalysis in particular, and as such you have to go through therapy yourself, and my therapist in a session where we were discussing sexuality pointed out something that really floored me. A phrase I always thought was rather beautiful "to make love to someone" I used in context of my relationship, and he challanged me why I said make love to as opposed to make love with?

I did a lot of soul searching, and I could only come to the rather painful conclusion that on some unconscious level I did (and do) objectify women, although if you'd have asked me beforehand I would have sworn blind I did no such thing. This is where I think the vast majority of men currently sit. I did some mental backtracking and identified there was a point before what I suppose the worst of what I suppose you'd call "patriarchal conditioning" set in. At a sleepover when I was around 14-15 talk turned to a particularly beautiful older girl at my school, things got to a rather cringeworthy point where we all went round and talked about the things we would like to do to her, and I got derided when I said I'd just like to go out for a bite to eat to get to know her better (I was often soundly bullied for saying completely left field things that went agains the pack). I'd very much like to get back to that kid, looking back on him I quite like him.

Where this all gets to porn, is I am old enough to have thankfully had a childhood and adolesence free from the internet, but despite that I can still clearly identify parts of my own psyche where I have work to do. I read things like FHM and Loaded in my twenties, and I have picked up bad habits, but thankfully not to the point that it has impeded my ability to enjoy deep relationships or even strong enduring friendships with women. Yet the problem as I see it with things like internet porn, and to a lesser extent the things that affected me is that all of those things are passive experiences, where people fulfill a biological urge but there is no imagination attached to it, which I think is the foundation of any healthy sexuality. I don't think an attack on porn is an unreasonable thing to do at all, but I think the problem we're really talking about was around long before it, so it's only real efficacy at this point is damage control, but there is still more to be done.

I'm really really sorry for that wall of text, and prattling on about myself. However I couldn't really get to the meat of where I'm coming from without delving into some quite personal to me thought processes. I also don't really consider myself an expert on female sexuality, so I deliberately avoided tackling that side of the fence although that is of course just as important. Also for the parts that were off topic.

BasilBabyEater · 24/07/2013 21:37

I thought that was an interesting perambulation Dervel, don't apologise for rambling off a bit, it's in a good cause.

What struck me about that teenage boy stuff was the thing that men are taught which can be summed up as "bro's before ho's".

It's what patriarchy has always imposed on men - the concept that the most important bonding they can do, is not with women or with their children, but with other men.

When they step outside that rule, they threaten patriarchy. So they have to be slapped down. Jeering at a boy (or man) who talks about a girl (or woman) like she's a human being just like other boys (or men) serves the same function as porn - it reminds boys and men how they should be performing masculinity. The jeering reminds them of the punishments for not doing so (loss of social status, ostracisation, expulsion from the group) while porn rewards them for doing so (orgasm).

StickEmUp · 24/07/2013 21:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.