Dustin Hoffman on being beautiful enough

[MyHumpsMyLovelyBabyBumps]

www.upworthy.com/dustin-hoffman-breaks-down-crying-explaining-something-that-every-woman-sadly-already-experienced-3?c=gt1

I was unmoved by this, and not sure what was meant to move me.

He was sad that he wouldn't make a beautiful women. OK. A bit of humility never goes amiss.

He was sad that women who are not beautiful get ignored. But by whom? I'm not beautiful and I don't feel ignored by the people I want to notice me: the people who may judge me on looks interest me not at all. I felt that he felt sorry for most women because men like him ignore them. Patronising git (to men as well, but mainly to women).

And as someone else said, he actually took no responsibility for his behaviour before his Damascene conversion to...what? To not being shallow? Could he not have worked out before Tootsie that most women are pretty all right despite not looking like the stereotype he happens to see in his tiny, tiny corner of the world? And...why has he never mentioned this publicly before? Tootsie was decades ago. He could have made his point a hundred times over, if he really meant it.

I think he's a patronising, shallow, stupid person who happens to have got a bit teary because he knows it will play well on camera.

This is a coincidence, or maybe it's not, but I can recall years ago reading in some book on gender issues that Dustin Hoffman was being interviewed by a journalist and some distance away, there was a group of adoring female fans behind a barrier. And he broke off the interview and went over to them and shouted "Where were you when I needed you?" So he's had some experience thinking about what makes women versus men attractive.

Our tradition is that men earn their attractiveness by actions, and women generate theirs by their appearance. One thing I definitely don't think is a coincidence is that we demand something close to a uniform appearance for men, in terms of grooming and clothing (unless they're rock stars!) But for women there are endless variations that go in and out of fashion combined with individual presentation, to achieve the aim of "beauty". Though of course everyone knows an older woman is forbidden to do much in that line--it would never do to be "mutton trying to dress as lamb".

Even if all that's true though, I don't think there's zero worth given to people's qualities of intelligence (if used without arrogance) or integrity or just plain being fun to be with. Those things do count in whether we find people attractive.

So anyway, maybe Dustin Hoffman has put some thought into this, and allowing for the fact that he's rich and famous, he's at least being a male who's willing to articulate some of it. At least that's better than going along with it all one's life and saying nothing.

Vellimetry, I thought he was feeling guilty (rather than sympathetic) because he'd been filtering women FIRST on looks, before even bothering to think about what they had to offer in terms of personality. And I don't think he was generalising out to all men, just noting his own assumption that women had to be hot to be considered good for anything at all.

And maybe he meant that if they weren't dateable-hot, he wasn't that interested in them even for things that weren't date related, like for work or conversation purposes (being married after all).

For instance, how about Marion Bartoli this week and all the "she's not fit enough to win Wimbledon"? As if your facial features or colouring have any bearing at all on your tennis skills.

God I love Dustin Hoffman so much.

Well Elephants, then he's a bit stupid. I understood what he was saying, but really hated the way he a) called it brainwashing when it was in fact him in particular being shallow; and b) cried and yet - I noticed - didn't actually accept any guilt or responsibility through the tears, no actual words like 'I behaved badly' or 'I was to blame for being a jerk'. Just snivels.

What he alludes to - and does little more than allude to and then sniff a bit - is insidious, and has undoubtedly damaged people. I just didn't see him articulating it with any insight or real contrition!

(I am well 'ard, obviously.)

I actually find it quite annoying that people think he's great for snivelling because - let's face it - he couldn't be made to look beautiful and then realised, with ZERO consequences for him, that he might have been a bit of a cock.

I would feel quite different if he had actually talked about the problem of women's appearance vs men's achievements (or extended it in any way beyond 'I thought I made an interesting woman but realised nobody would have talked to me' but he was not bright enough to do so!

(Sorry, do carry on, I realise I've ranted a bit there.)

I actually thought part if his light bulb moment was that he had missed out on what they had to say. not that had lost the chance to have him stoop to chatting with them

*not that the women had lost out

I think it goes beyond comparing how attractive or accomplished people of either sex deal with each other. I'm not talking about pulling or relationships but in social or professional interactions there is a marked difference between the way men and women generally deal with each other.

Both attractive and plain women will generally chat and listen to unattractive or even unaccomplished men based on whether they are interesting or funny or even endure tedious, ugly bores out of politeness.

Both attractive and plain men, whether accomplished or not, are much much more likely to ignore unattractive women, whether accomplished or not.

Unattractive / "low status" (ugh, I hate that term) men generally ignore unattractive women. You see this all the time with MRAs/ PUAs whining about how attractive women won't date them / talk to them. They don't care about or even mention average or plain women. Those women don't even register.

This is consistent with my own experience. I am average looking but can occasionally scrub up reasonably well or look worse than average at other times. I definitely find men in general (not just attractive or "high status") listen more when I look more attractive even in my work. I'm a lawyer so it doesn't exactly call for super model looks. When I worked as a waitress, I made more tips from men when I looked better but the tips from women were much the same however I looked.

Women who lose weight commonly say they felt they had suddenly become visible, not just for dating but in general life. Women as they get older say they become invisible in public life, the street, etc.

www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/07/gaming-mr-darcy-what-jane-aust.html

Of course, one cannot remain wise while giving full credence to such fantastical notions.

he's only about five foot five. before he was an actor he can't have had much success with women. he might be well-meaning and a little patronising, but it's weird because the ISSUE that I'd imagine he would best understand is how short men are dismissed as contenders....

He was lucky. He had (in his youth) an appealing if not handsome, face, he got into acting, he got married, but he must know that if he were still in his home town working as an estate agent, he'd be considered a short man, and overlooked in the same way as unattractive older women are dismissed.

I do actually appreciate that he said what he thought even though I also feel that maybe he's sadder for unattractive women then they need him to be. I've often thought that beautiful women end up with a better looking bastard!!!! or a better looking lazy arse!! that's it really. Same old shit just a better looking face at the other end of the mundane conversations.

Actually that is a good point Zyn. I'm not conventionally beautiful. Or beautiful at all actually . I'm average looking at best and probably less than average if I look around my office. It's been a sadness at times but actually my life is great because I made it so.

Men do get a lot more leeway to be plain - the high status people in my office are the men who are all notably plain. But I don't have to put up with the nonsense of having to be an alpha man and living that rubbish all the time so I guess I've reached a point where it's ok for me to be an ordinary looking woman with a good life.

Flora, what does MRA/PUA stand for? I agree with what you say though, I don't want to use the expression low status male but yes, I've noticed that average, or very ordinary &/or short unattractive men get angry with all women because the beautiful ones don't see them. They don't register that they are doing the exact same thing, not seeing women who are there in front of them but less attractive.

I mean, I don't want to use the expression either. I sounded like I was criticising you for using it!

We are a terribly superficial society. I can appreciate the noses put out of joint by the mere fact Dustin Hoffman is a man saying this, but to be honest I'll take any avenue that might make people think as a positive.

I also don't think women bieng judged on their appearance is the exclusive province of men. It undoubtedly happens and definitely needs challenging, but I was reminded of some married friends of mine. We were all at a wedding and the chap of the couple is quite good looking. His wife was approached by some random female wedding guest, and she enquired who that hot looking man was and upon being informed "oh that's my husband" She was disdainfully looked down upon and asked "how on earth did you manage that?"

Now I am not advocating that we should herald Dustin Hoffman as some sort of hero. He is after all just an actor, but I'm not sure we need to be a child soldier forced to fight in the Congo or a Filipino sweatshop worker to pass comment on the social injustices of those states of affairs in order raise awareness of them.

Zyn, it's not quite the same thing, is it? Because as Flora says, the less good looking men are often just as bad as ignoring the unattractive women, whereas less attractive women are often quite happy to talk to the less attractive men. The less attractive men don't care. I've found, as a huge generalisation, that more attractive merely ignore me, whereas the unsolicited abuse I've received has come from the shorter/fatter/uglier end of the market. Perhaps fear that they are doomed to a women less than gorgeous makes them hit out.

Obviously plenty of unattractive men do NOT hand out insults, and some men of all types will talk to me or even compliment me. I even managed to marry one.

Women are apparently 'brainwashed' by the patriarchy every day. DH uses the same terminology, and within that idea, I think it was a just word choice. I think, because we are almost always women on here, we assume that men know exactly what feminists do and think. If you're a man, benefiting from society as a man can, socialised and working within the norms for the society, I find it less than obvious that men should just 'know' about feminism and the important messages discussed at length on this board.

Seeing things from other people's perspective isn't very easy - I remember a good looking, really nice bloke, quite charming and a friend who was not an alpha male. This quiet friend one day confided how he disliked the charmer intensely because of how he treated other men and how insincere he was with women. I suddenly saw the charmer through my friend's eyes - it was a moment of role-reversal and quite a shock to me at the time. SO I can definately empathise with DH's moment of self-discovery.

From some of the responses on here, I get the idea that feminism could do more to see things from the male perspective - realise that not all the messages are getting though and thinking why that is the case. If we want to win hearts and minds, we want to win men's as well as women's.

I think there is a deep misogyny in the unattractive men being upset that they get overlooked by attractive women that goes beyond relative levels of attractiveness. It's fundamentally a horror that unattractive and "low status" men feel when they realise they are not even desirable to the lowest status creature on earth - an ordinary woman. What could be worse than being an ordinary woman? And if an ordinary woman doesn't find you attractive when you are actually a MAN then something has gone horribly wrong. I think that's where the anger comes from.

The equivalent woman doesn't get angry because she already knows where she is in the pecking order because society has made it clear every day since birth.

@LeBFG I like your post a great deal. I have come to feminism comparatively late, mainly through the lens of improving global conditions. Once I saw the data on ensuring girls are educated in developing nations, it became a no brainer to support it.

From then taking a look at my own society it became abundantly clear a lot more should be done, which to my shame I had not been aware of. I think perhaps the quite understandable reaction from feminists to men who either get it, are trying to or who are just starting down that road is quite rightly "what do you want a bloody medal?". As if the concept of one man now he suddenly gets it will now make all the difference.

When we make society better we have to do it together. Which is why if DH's comments make some people think that is a good thing, not that he or any bloke who tries deserve anything for simply being better human beings, but I do believe it should perhaps allow the benefit of the doubt. I don't know perhaps he's just a vacuous attention whore (he is an actor!) who arrived at some rudimentary revelation, but fundamentally wants to hear himself speak, but frankly I don't know him well enough outside of his acting to be able to judge.

One final note, as a bloke it is extremely disconcerting to think how my own deep seated modes of thinking may be mysoginistic and oppressive, and one area I envy female feminists is that with every realisation you make comes a greater sense of liberation. Whereas for men this can come with an overwhelming sense of guilt. Perhaps fully rightly but it does make it a rather different journey although without question a worthwhile one for its own sake.

Dervel, why should you feel shame? You are born into a society with all it's built-in values and rules. You come to a realisation that it could be better. Where is the shame in that?

Ok I could well get flamed for this but for example: I remember a few years ago I was having discussions with a female friend about feminism, and whilst I was arguing that whilst sexist men undoubtedly exist surely things were not all that bad. These discussions got quite heated and she was raising examples from her personal life, particularly her career (which is of a technical scientific bent), but me in my privilege just simply couldn't see it.

I was aware these arguments were deeply frustrating for her and rather than actually stopping to think why (and possibly delve into the subject to a greater depth) carried on regardless. Having since seen the light so to speak. I have apologised to her, admitted I was wrong and she was right, but I cannot help but look back at those debates and cringe now at my own ignorance.