Feeling a bit let down by 'the sisterhood'

[Hopingitwillallbefine]

I am a new(ish) mum to a dd (11 months) and have just returned to work full time. This was not a decision I took lightly but made for a number of reasons, including the fact that we really need the money for a deposit for a new house and I love my job and have worked hard to get where I am, and would like to continue to progress in my career. My DH also works full time. We are fortunate enough to have reasonable working hours (him 9-5, me 8-4) which mean that between us we are at home with dd until about 8.15am in the morning and from 5pm in the evening. Between 8.30 and 5pm dd is at nursery. We chose her nursery because we loved it immediately and continue to be impressed and happy with the quality and standard of care it offers. Dd LOVES nursery, has made a great bond with her keyworker and seems to have such lovely, fun and full days.

Apologies for the boring details of our life - all pretty normal stuff. However the reason for my post and what has really upset me/pissed me off in the past few months has been the attitudes of other women towards the decisions we have made as a family about working hours and childcare arrangements. I have lost count of the occasions that I have been met with undisguised horror, disgust or pity when I've told female friends or colleagues I am back at work full time. Not all of them, but enough to make me feel like a dreadful mother. Responses like "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" Or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable". Even my manager has asked me if i want to consider going part time now I am a mum. Similarly, I have been treated to a variety of unhelpful and at times offensive remarks from friends and colleagues about our decision to use a nursery including suggestions that we are risking our dd developing attachment disorder or questions like "is there no way your family could help?" (No), "wouldn't you at least prefer a childminder?" (No), "have you thought about how damaging it could be if your dd's keyworker left?" Etc etc.

These comments are so frequent that I now have a pre-prepared mini speech when people ask about work or childcare to try and head off all the criticisms and 'helpful suggestions'. What annoys me is the implicit assumption that obviously I am only back at work FT out of absolute necessity and that if there were any alternatives at all I would of course be working part time or not at all as all good mothers should - and to admit that I have chosen to return full time partly because I still give a toss about my career and enjoy being at work is tantamount to declaring that I couldn't care less about my dd. Further, I wouldn't dream of questioning another woman's childcare choices and have been really upset and surprised by how many women seem to think that nursery is virtual child abuse and it is their responsibility to educate me on the reasons why. But finally, and the reason for my post in this section of MN is that all of this, without exception has come from other women. Not one man has made me feel bad about my choices or questioned them in any way. Similarly, my husband, who earns exactly the same as me, has never been made to feel bad about being at work FT. Nobody has ever suggested that he might want to go part time now we have a child.

So I just feel a bit let down by women at the moment. I know it is impossible to 'have it all' and I'm not pretending otherwise, but I would like to continue to pursue my career while providing as much care, love and attention to my dd as I can. I love her more than I knew possible and love spending time with her. I feel genuinely excited every day when I go to pick her up and we have a lovely two hours together every evening after work when I am totally and utterly focused on her. We have lovely weekends as a family and spending time together having fun is so important to me. But I also love being at work and enjoy my day and feel so fulfilled by it. Shouldn't other women be supporting me and encouraging me, isn't this equality and freedom what we have fought for for years?

Holy-derailed-thread-bunfight Batman.

OP you don't deserve this

Sorry that you got all of this OP. You know what, you sound pretty feisty and capable of telling all the nosy, rude, judgemental so and so's in RL and on here where to go.

But I do agree, not worth rising to the bait in most cases in RL. Honestly, I've been thinking about this and I think you just say 'Thanks, but DH and I are both happy about the decisions we've made on our working hours' and then repeat, repeat, repeat. Or just 'thanks, but it works for us'.

The longer I am a parent (and DD1 is only 4!) the more I realise that everyone has an opinion on everything. From bf/ff, to sleep, to potty training, to speech, to schools, to gender stereotyping, to prams/slings/car seats. Sometimes I engage, sometimes I just shut it down. No other aspect of your life to do complete strangers feel they have the right to nosy into your life to such a degree. People are always asking me if we are having any more children. It's kind of an open question for us at the moment, so I don't mind friends talking about it because they know that. But honestly, strangers in the queue at the post office a week or so ago. Why is it ok to ask something so personal when I would never venture beyond weather or the length of the queue!

The OP states that she is "feeling a bit disappointed that we can't all support each other, regardless of our choices".

If we're discussing "the sisterhood" and whether women do and/or should support each other in their choices, then it is fair enough that those who do not support the OP's choice also join in. That seems to me to be entirely relevant, and not trolling.

In fact, it may even offer the OP insight into why she's not getting the support she feels she should be, no?

In fact, it may even offer the OP insight ... no?

No. Hoping is quite aware of why she's not getting the support she would like.

People everywhere feel entitled to judge & condemn a woman's choices, especially in matters related to childbearing. It starts on your wedding day, ime, and doesn't stop until menopause (even now, people I've only just met ask me why I didn't have children!) It's none of their business unless the woman herself has made it their business. And, no, it doesn't happen to men.

Hoping has recently come in for a very large dose of this unpleasant interference, and is disappointed that much of it comes from women. THAT is the subject. Busybodies who've joined her thread, to make interfering judgements on her, are part of the PROBLEM, not part of the discussion. As they're part of the problem, this conversation is about what's wrong with THEM.

But if she wants to know "why so many women felt they were entitled to comment on her choices" as you say, Buffy, then surely you need some of those women to actually comment on it, don't you?

I don't mean just to say "you're doing the wrong thing", I mean to say why they think she's doing the wrong thing.

Or it's shown that there is no such thing as a collective "sisterhood" which one could feel let down by? Instead you have individual women with opinions and judgypants of their own.

How can the answer be hurtful if the OP is happy with her decision? What she wants is everyone else to be happy with her decision:

"Shouldn't other women be supporting me and encouraging me, isn't this equality and freedom what we have fought for for years?"

and, as you say, this thread has demonstrated why that is not the case.

You are doing the right thing and working mothers always have the last laugh as they are happier and their children do better. There is lot of sexism about and it needs to be rooted out.

Next time someone suggests you should be at home probe them - ask why they think like that, did they have a sexist upbringing, ask them if they make the same comments to men.

If any woman goes back to full time work that I know I am very encouraging as I know it is far and away the best decision most women ever take and they and their children thrive.

"They are happier and their children do better". These ridiculous generalisations made by the insecure seeking to justify their own decisions really makes me . I doubt my own DC would have been particularly happy had I gone back to my old job (working until 11pm at night regularly and international travel at the drop of a hat anyone?). Good for you that you made the right decision for you and your family but extrapolating that is "right" for everyone is short sighted and naive.

Hope, you said "But if she wants to know why so many women felt they were entitled to comment on her choices, surely you need some of those women to actually comment on it, don't you?"

It could have been interesting, yes, but you didn't. You said she's doing the wrong thing. You tried to say why you think it's the wrong thing. So far, this is the behaviour she's complained about.

Neither you, nor OP's other critics, have said what entitles you to tell her she's wrong. She didn't ask you if she was.

So why do you feel entitled to foist your judgement on her?
Are you the Ruler Of All Childcare??
Are you her husband?
If neither of the above, what makes it your business?

If you can answer that, you will possibly be contributing to the discussion.

I don't know if this is a helpful / interesting thought... but I always find it funny how little we remember of history. Up until the mid -20th century the vast majority of women worked. Only a tiny number of middle and upper class women didn't (although obviously they didn't look after their own children). Thos women left their children with relatives or with minders. Yet everyone seems to think mothers working is a new phenomenon.

Perhaps it's hit our generation so hard because a smaller minority of us had full time working mothers. I did - my mother went back to work when I was 5 weeks old, but she was very lucky and ran a shop so she could take me with her. It meant I always assumed I would go back to work, but was hit by the difference of finding full time childcare.

I think that women are so busy wrestling with the worries for themselves that they want to justify their own choice by making others feel bad. We look for the evidence that supports our own choices, and then we push it at others. This insecurity is - of course - a direct response to the patriarchy that makes us solely responsible for childcare and which discourages us from having a fulfilment in any other area of our lives.

The positive from this - is that when you do find women who support your choices and care for your happiness - then you find real friends. My childminder was one of the closest people in my life for the 4 years she had DD. Now that she has fulfilled her ambition to leave childcare and become a teacher (my God, I wept), she remains a close friend. DD and I are both happier people for having had her in our lives.

Um, no.
I actually haven't offered any opinion on what the OP is doing, I've just pointed out that the debate she has instigated needs to hear from her "critics" (ie those who can see why her work colleagues might be saying what they are) too.

That isn't what she asked for though.

She didn't ask for a conversation about whether her choices were right or wrong.

She asked for a conversation about why some women think it is OK to tell her to her face that they think her choices are wrong, given that we live in a society where these type of comments are generally outside what is considered polite / normal social discourse.

It is a reasonable and interesting question and I think she has had plenty of responses saying why people (women) in this particular conversation feel it is OK to step outside the boundaries of normal social interaction.

People telling her that she is wrong is not the answer to what she is asking. She is asking why real life people she knows think it is OK to challenge her on her family life. When on other topics that is considered personal and not done.

It's not that tricky.

Yes, I agree. But I think that that conversation can and should involve women who think the way her colleagues do, precisely because they can say why they think that.

For example, lemonmuffin's comments:

"It may be because most women understand that a baby needs its mother in the first few weeks of its life.
I think these women are just trying to tell you that, albeit in a clumsy way."

Instead of asking her (I assume her) to explain why she thinks that, or how she has come to the conclusion that "most women" understand that, she is immediately told her comments are "wrong", the discussion is shut down.

It is imo totally relevant to hear from posters like her, and if necessary to challenge that thinking, but to block and/or accuse of trolling seems pointless.

helenislovely writes:
"I think that women are so busy wrestling with the worries for themselves that they want to justify their own choice by making others feel bad".

This is her opinion on what might be happening in the OP's scenario.
I disagree with this as a general statement, though it may be an explaination for some of the comments the OP is getting. Another explaination might be that some of the women genuinely think she has made the wrong choice.

The OP is bemoaning the fact that women as a collective are not supporting her decision, yet as has been pointed out by a number of posters, there is no "sisterhood", the collective doesn't exist.

I think it is not at all surprising, nor inappropriate, that the replies on here reflect that.

Instead of:
^"It may be because most women understand that a baby needs its mother in the first few weeks of its life.
I think these women are just trying to tell you that, albeit in a clumsy way."^

Try this:
^"It may be because most women understand that black people need to be amongst their own kind, not in a mainly white environment.
I think these women are just trying to tell you that, albeit in a clumsy way."^

Or,
^"It may be because most women understand that a disabled person needs to be cared for in a home, away from society.
I think these women are just trying to tell you that, albeit in a clumsy way."^

Imagine you and I have just met at a coffee machine. I inform you that your hairstyle & outfit are dreadful, you need a complete style overhaul. I further add that your husband must find it difficult being seen around with such a frumpy woman!

Am I being kind, if a little clumsy? Or are you holding back your urge to punch me in the face while you check me for signs of 'special needs'?

Indeed garlic. It is so ingrained in so many people that a woman's life choices are public property and up for discussion. Well, they aren't.

Garlic and nicetabard, you have both posed the question much better than I did - thank you! Yes I am not asking why people disagree with me, I am well aware that plenty of women disagree with the choices I have made and I even genuinely understand and appreciate some of the reasons this may be. I just don't need to hear them every time I mention my dc's childcare arrangements or my working hours. Why is it that a woman's parenting choices are fair game to other women to comment on and criticise at will? It's just not good form IMO - it sets women against each other, and makes us feel hostile, guilty and insufficient. I have friends who are sahms, work part time, full time, use nannies, CMs , nurseries, parents, breast feed, bottle feed, use controlled crying, attachment parenting, I could go on and on - and I totally respect each of these choices as valid and right for the individual. And more importantly I credit them with the intelligence and compassion to have thought these decisions through for themselves without needing my opinions or advice. I don't necessarily agree with all these choices and that is my right but I don't need to force my views on others when they have not been asked for.
Totally off topic really but just came across this - might be of interest to some of the posters who have contributed...
mobile.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/06/female_academics_pay_a_heavy_baby_penalty.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_share_toolbar

Hoping, tell anyone who gives you a hard time to fuck the fuck off. OR ask if they are offering to pay your rent/mortgage for you. Someone's got to keep a roof over your baby's head...

You can't win. Give up work and you are a layabout, a waste of an education and a drain on society, go back to work and you are a bad, neglectful mother whose child will end up a delinquent. Oddly enough none of these judgments ever refer to what the father does, nor question his working patterns.

FWIW, my ds is nearly ten, and dh and I have used a combination of WOH/WAH/part-time/full-time over the years. And nurseries, nannies, childminders and after school club. Ds is fine - lovely boy, doing very well at school, and someone other parents are happy to have around (i.e. not a delinquent who is feared by parents near and far). His lovely former nanny is a very dear family friend - we were at the christening of her lovely babies only a couple of weeks ago.

What I'm trying to say is, it's all fine, it will be fine, don't let moaning minnies who are trying to justify their own insecurity drag you down.

mobile.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/06/female_academics_pay_a_heavy_baby_penalty.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_share_toolbar