Friends who have been to stripclubs.

[academic]

Have any of you got friends who have visited stripclubs/hired 'dancers' or waitresses for stag nights etc?

If you found out that your friends had indulged in such behaviour would you see them in a different light? Would you perhaps even choose to end the friendship? Or would your opinion of them be unaffected?

There reason I ask is that a friend of mine is unhappy that her partner is attending a stag do abroad which will inevitably involve strippers and much debauchery in general. She was wondering whether she would be able to tell him that he couldn't go. I'm afraid I wasn't much help when she asked my opinion - these guys happen to have been very good friends for such a long time, and her partner is not the best man; he has no say over the itinerary. However I do understand her misgivings.

I wouldn't have friends who indulged in that sort of behaviour, so it's not really an issue for me.

I wouldn't want to be in the sort of relationship where one of the partners is so infantilised that the other partner feels it's their role to tell him what to do.

I would never tell a man not to go to a strip club. I just wouldn't want him in my life if he did - I'm too good for that shit.

As far as I know, none of my friends have been to a strip club and I have absolutely no interest in doing so either. This short clip always makes me smile: m.youtube.com/watch?v=0-sBM11mGNI

That's all well and good Basil, I don't like the idea of my DP visiting strip clubs either, although I know that he has been on stag dos in the past where this has happened, but while I can have a say in what he does for leisure now that he's with me, I can't control what his company deems acceptable or what his friends and family choose to do on a stag night.

He says he wouldn't go for the fun of it, but he works in an industry where it is accepted practice to entertain sleazebags clients at these places, (although his company apparently doesn't, but only because they are too stingy to pay for it!)

I have made it clear that I would not be happy if that were to crop up, explaining that if these clients were female or not at all interested in strip clubs that they would have to find a more appropriate way to win their business, so why not do that anyway, be known as a better class of company who don't need to use alcohol and women's bodies to sell their services.

He asked what would happen if his brother decided to get married and it was arranged for them to go somewhere like that. I said "obviously he's your brother so I can't say 'don't go to his stag do' but I would hope that your brother had the same level of respect for his financee that I believe you have for me and would choose not to go somewhere like that at the very point he is supposed to be committing to a serious relationship with her".

If you love someone its not as clear cut as saying "I think its wrong therefore don't go to your best mate's/brother's stag do or I won't have anything more to do with you". If only it were that simple.

I agree with Basil, I don't think it's right to tell your partner, or a friend, what they can and can't do. But, I wouldn't be able to keep quiet about my feelings. If they still wanted to go, fair enough, I'd be disappointed but I wouldn't end a relationship or friendship because of it. Prostitution would be different though.

Fwiw, I visited a strip club 10 years ago, before I really started thinking about feminism, etc. I hope that people wouldn't judge me now based on then.

"If you love someone its not as clear cut as saying "I think its wrong therefore don't go to your best mate's/brother's stag do or I won't have anything more to do with you". If only it were that simple."

For me, it is that simple. I just wouldn't love someone who thought it was OK to go to strip clubs. It's not a question of telling someone not to go somewhere, I just wouldn't be with a man who thought it was OK to do that in the first place.

I can understand that if you fell in love with someone when you were much younger and your views of the world weren't quite crystallised and you hadn't necessarily made your mind up on stuff, then you have to compromise. I'm lucky, I don't.

"her partner is not the best man..."

Ah, but suppose he were merely a good man?

I do know a man whose coworkers hired a stripper to celebrate the boss's birthday. When the word was passed around that the woman had arrived, he left by the back door and strolled around the neighbourhood for half an hour.

Lissiloo, I feel that DP is only really beginning to even consider a feminist perspective since being with me, as its not something that has naturally been part of his life before.

I may be making a huge assumption, but his ex doesn't strike me as the feminist type (think TOWIE) and it sounds like his colleagues (who are also his friends and family) are probably of a similar nature. I know he has ingrained opinions but hopefully by having discussions about this sort of thing he will see how awful and outdated those concepts are and start to see a more enlightened way.

I could just disregard all the wonderful things he says and does and dump on the strength of a couple of (apparently pretty dull and cynical) visits to these places in his past, or I could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he will take my views into account and hopefully share them with others, thereby educating others out of their antiquated attitudes.

Donut, exactly. I know that over the last five years or so, I've changed. My perspectives have altered and as a result, dh has changed too. We've both grown and something that would raise a "meh" or be a bit of fun would now appall us both. And I know that as with porn, he would probably share his new views with his friends.

Yes, DP apparently has lots of lunchtime discussions with his mates about things I've mentioned from MN - I feel like I'm providing a vital public service, educating the neanderthal menfolk via my lovely DP!

Does he actually want to go or is he doing the I can't get out of it thing?

Either way he's probably telling your friend he can't get out of it which is utter rubbish. The world is apparently full of men who only go to these places because they can't get out of it so it would only take one to say 'actually this isn't my thing, anybody else fancy a bar/meal/whatever instead?' and the stag group could split in two for a couple of hours.

Apparently that's really scary though. Not like having to take your clothes off in front of a bunch of very drunk and entitled complete strangers. That's not scary at all. Not as scary as it is for a man to appear to 'bottle it' in front of his mates

If I were your friend I would be asking two questions:

Do I want to be with someone who enjoys watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being?

Do I want to be with someone who doesn't enjoy, but is willing to put up with, watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being just so he doesn't look a bit soft in front of his mates?

She's entitled to draw a line wherever she wants.

This is less about setting some sort of rule or ultimatum than it is about seeing what sort of man he is and where his values lie.

Nobody has to stay with anybody whose values they abhor.

Nobody should give money to an industry that exploits those in a vulnerable position. So, he could just say that he will do something else while they are in there, and meet them afterwards.

While your friend is at it, she should also ensure that this guy does not wear clothes or shoes from third world countries. Remember the factory in Bangladesh? Also, check his car - parts are manufactured all over the world before assembly. What about his gizmos? Apple and others exploit workers in China, making them work horrendous hours for a pittance. Fourteen workers committed suicide in 2010 at one of their factories.

No point in any half-measures.

yeah you need to get a clipboard with a list of all these things, with tick boxes next to them and give him a sort of mini interrogation....

I would hope that, in such a situation, DH would say "it's not really my thing, I'm going to go for a meal/to that bar over there". Because I hope and expect that he values women enough to make that choice.

I would never tell him what to do, but I would find it hard to get past I think.

I would find "I couldn't get out of it" even worse, if anything, than actively deciding to go. Because that means he's done something he understands is wrong because he's too scared of a bit of peer pressure from his mates. That's worse than ignorance or actually thinking it is ok IMO - at least I could hope to argue with him and convince him on the latter. If he's too scared of his mates to act like a grown up. Well, it would be a big strain on our relationship.

I've been to them. There are a lot of things I used to see as 'grey areas', which now seem clearer-cut (not entirely, but those are other threads.) My changed perspective has caused relationships with close friends and family members to break down. They're intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, which is basically that they're misogynists. They don't want to give up their sex trade fun or their self-perception as equal respecters of women, so they give me up instead.

If I wanted to be in love (or even close friends) with a man who went along with the sex trade's illusions, I'd try and educate him enough that he'd want to opt out for himself. But if he didn't? These days, I'd probably let him go, although sad and looking quite crazy to other people.

He is a grown man if you don't like what he does leave him.

I would fully understand the 'leave the bastard' point of view if people were consistent in their views. Ethical food, ethical clothes, ethical banking etc. are all things we should aspire to. But why is there just this narrow focus on visiting a strip club? Is it okay to find strip clubs abhorrent and yet buy clothes from Matalan made in sweat shops, or computers manufactured in Third World countries?

OP didn't ask about differing views on cheap t-shirts, NCG

Perhaps if OP's friend was a tailor and the discussion was about the exploitation of tailors being made to manufacture cheap t-shirts in sweatshops this would be a valid point.

As it is she is a woman and it is a discussion about her fella's views towards the exploitation of women and their bodies. Fairtrade is a totally different and separate concept.

women aren't allowed to set boundaries about what they will accept in relationships unless they also set other boundaries men deem consistent with the ones they want to set.

It depends how much you insist that everyone you know agrees with your about everything. Some people will not tolerate any disagreement from close friends or family members and cut contact if they see the ;wrong; newspaper lying on the table, others will try to reach a compromise (eg Dear MIL please don't start ranting your low level racist bigotry in front of DC, dear friend, please don't tell my DC that Jesus loves them when we are Hindus....) because, despite disagreeing on certain things, the people in question are otherwise kind, amusing, loyal, practical etc. But everyone has their own limits on this sort of thing.

I know someone who works in a strip club and loves it! It means she can work for really good money at night when he dc are asleep. She does not feel exploited as she sees it as a skilled job. She is good friends with the other girls who work there and practices bloody hard to get her dances right etc
She is university educated and has many employable attributes which means she could have a number of different jobs, if she wanted.
She likes that people (not just men) come and watch her and appreciate her... art.
I think it's a bit shallow to assume that all women are exploited in this industry although it obviously does go on, from what I know in the seedier, cheaper places where they do abuse women and don't let them have choices.
Im going to go right against the grain and say that I wouldn't mind my dp going to watch strippers on a stag night. As long as all involved treat it as a bit of fun. I wouldn't be happy with a private dance as there's no need.
It's not something dp and I are interseted in doing and he hasn't ever done anything like that (since we've been together anyway- in the past, I don't know or care).

A friend was a lapdancer and loved it. Another was a hostess in one and loved it. Friends of friends have done it and loved it. One earnt enough over a couple of years to buy a house outright. None of them were vulnerable or exploited although I agree I'm sure there are some... But people are exploited in all sorts of jobs. I went to one with ex DP - neither of us liked it much. My current DP wouldn't go to one out of choice and I don't think he would feel obliged to go to one with mates but that's because it's not something his friends would do.

It is not a black and white issue and I'm with namechangeguy on all of the double standards.