Friends who have been to stripclubs.

[academic]

Have any of you got friends who have visited stripclubs/hired 'dancers' or waitresses for stag nights etc?

If you found out that your friends had indulged in such behaviour would you see them in a different light? Would you perhaps even choose to end the friendship? Or would your opinion of them be unaffected?

There reason I ask is that a friend of mine is unhappy that her partner is attending a stag do abroad which will inevitably involve strippers and much debauchery in general. She was wondering whether she would be able to tell him that he couldn't go. I'm afraid I wasn't much help when she asked my opinion - these guys happen to have been very good friends for such a long time, and her partner is not the best man; he has no say over the itinerary. However I do understand her misgivings.

[Thisisaeuphemism]

What a disgrace you lot are - discussing this when you should be discussing something else (something I think is more important).

[garlicnutty]

It's puzzling, isn't it, Basil?! I'm really not bothered about knitting, say, so I never ever go on a knitting thread. I can't imagine what could motivate me to pile in there and tell them all they're doing it wrong, or that they're faulty because they find knitting interesting, and they should be like me.

If I did do anything so weird, I'd be a fool to expect them to welcome my opinion, wouldn't I?

[BasilBabyEater]

"perhaps we need to concede that feminist issues just simply aren't going to be everyone's first priority in terms of things they care about and are motivated by."

Oh I'm more than happy to concede that. I just wish those ppl would concentrate on their own priorities and stop coming over 'ere and telling us to stop concentrating on our's.

[Beachcomber]

Yes it would change my opinion of a person if I found out that they support the sex industry by going to strip clubs. I would think they were an arsewipe.

Because the sex industry is massively gendered and it is part of the fundamental fabric of male supremacist society and violence against women.

And anyone who talks about fun and chat and crap is obviously so lacking in the will or ability to analyse the basics of sexual politics that I would rather not have anything much to do with them.

(BTW namechangeguy - it is great that you care so much about exploited workers. Patriarchal capitalist society is probably a better focus for you however, I mean rather than feminists. We don't run the show, we don't have the structural power in our hands and we didn't set the system up. You might want to get onto the menfolks about that one. Could you talk to them about the feminization of poverty whilst you are at it please?)

[AnyFucker]

Bloody hell, that rosa is a right ball breaker isn't she ?

[libertarianj]

Well Rosabud basically criticized me for going off topic and i was defending what was being discussed was still relevant to the original OP's questions. What's so weird about that?

I will however agree with you that my last sentence was a bit abstract having read it back, but it was just a casual comment that lot of of girls dress provocatively on a night out and is not something that is exclusive to strip clubs.

[garlicnutty]

That reply is so full of weirdness, lib, I barely (haha) know where to start! Let me just remark that your last sentence isn't a reply to the quote. You go to nightclubs for a good talk? OK

[libertarianj]

But Rosabud i was responding back to the other posters, and the points about objectification and dancer welfare are still relevant factors in persons deciding on why they don't like/ mind their mates going to strip clubs.

2) we don't understand what we are talking about, strip clubs are very different to what we all imagined and are, in fact, oases of friendly chatting (bit patronising - and the promoters of this concept have yet to argue why this chatting requires some of the chatters to remain clothed whilst the others must be dressed in a sexually provocative way)

It could be argued that the dancers were wearing more clothes than a lot of the women in the nightclubs we went to earlier on in the night.

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

Because they're arseholes who, for some reason, are threatened to their very bones by feminism - I don't disagree.

It's still not the question I'm trying to get clear in my own head, but don't wish to derail things myself, so will leave it.

[AnyFucker]

If everyone has the right "to focus on what they wish", why are every single one of these threads, without fail, targeted by derailers ?

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

The fact that women go to see male strippers, that there are burlesque stars of any gender, etc is often ignored.

But surely, as a feminist, you cannot argue that the situations are in any way comparable?

[DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper]

^Don, please explain exactly why you deem it wrong to discuss the problem of men supporting a specific industry which objectifies women, when there are also other problems in this world?

You might find your thought process instructive.^

Christ, I feel like I'm back at university, dealing with a particularly pompous tutorer.

But why is it hypocrisy to be so motivated and energetic about one thing but not so much about another?

Probably 'hypocrisy' is not the right word. But if we acknowledge that everyone 'has the right to focus their concern where they want', then perhaps we need to concede that feminist issues just simply aren't going to be everyone's first priority in terms of things they care about and are motivated by.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I don't 'deem it wrong to discuss the problem of men supporting this industry' in the slightest. That wasn't the point I was making but I'm just not articulate enough tonight to make myself clearer. Long day. :)

[SolidGoldBrass]

It certainly used to be true that some people went to strip clubs because they were open later. I sometimes did myself, with friends. Whether that's still the case or whether it's changed due to variations in licensing laws, I'm not entirely sure.

And the anti-strip-clubs arguments always do seem to boil down to this idea that there is something wrong with sexual display, male arousal and the way in which most people's sexual fantasies do not focus on the 'whole person'. The fact that women go to see male strippers, that there are burlesque stars of any gender, etc is often ignored.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Think people are missing the point about the whole issue. The only reason to go abroad and see strippers is that in the UK the men can't touch or take it further so if the men are going abroad from this they are going because they intend to take it further.

Guys who watch striptease in the UK don't touch so the argument becomes is it right or wrong to watch a naked performance, this doesn't seem to apply when men strip but thats another issue. Abroad depending on country it is much more likely to lead to sex.

Of course if striptease was banned in the UK then more men would go abroad on stags and well guess people could figure out the implications.

[rosabud]

We are not debating whether strippers are hookers, we are not debating whether strippers are happy in their job, we are not debating whether strippers should be censored. We are discussing how we feel about men who go to these clubs, with the emphasis on "what if it was your partner?" In effect, it is a thread asking for a personal opinion/response. And, so far, the general answer is leaning towards the "Not very impressed" response.

Some posters have replied that they wouldn't mind, it is not that harmful. However, the majority of the male posters in the "it's OK camp" have also tried to claim that 1) we are debating the wrong issue (bit patronising), 2) we don't understand what we are talking about, strip clubs are very different to what we all imagined and are, in fact, oases of friendly chatting (bit patronising - and the promoters of this concept have yet to argue why this chatting requires some of the chatters to remain clothed whlist the others must be dressed in a sexually provocative way) and 3) how we feel about men is not relevant and, instead, all our focus should be on the women in the situation (in other words, how dare you women have an opinion, particularly a negative one, about men).

[BOF]

Ever heard of cognitive dissonance? Or noticed that battered women often don't press charges and say "but he's such a good dad"? Heck, Macauley Culkin swears blind that Michael Jackson never abused him...

[libertarianj]

scallopsgreat And what is wrong with the objectification argument libertarianj? Do you want to be considered "objects to be looked at, ogled, even touched, or used, anonymous things or commodities perhaps to be purchased, perhaps taken - and once tired of, even discarded, often to be replaced by a newer, younger edition; certainly not treated as full human beings with equal rights and needs" (quoting Phyllis B. Frank) Because that is what objectification is and I don't want to be objectified. It doesn't just stay within the strip club either, it spreads outside to how men view other women in their life and into the media so that men feel entitled to view women as objects for their pleasure.

You really can't see how flawed that is? It based on massive assumptions on how people should think and act for starters. It's also the old pro censorship argument which implies that these things could warp a persons mind, as in they are too stupid to separate fantasy from reality.
And as i said earlier if these men only see these dancers as sex objects then why is so much time spent chatting to them?

[libertarianj]

Garlic I just get tremendously cheesed off with the persistent lies about strip clubs being believed by Mumsnetters; another variety of 'happy hooker' myths. The sex industries are pretty vile - I've been behind the scenes quite a bit, for various reasons - and, while the happy hookers & dancers do exist, they are vanishingly rare. Far fewer than 1%.

Care to quantify that less than 1% claim? and is it really fair to assume dancers and hookers as one and the same? As far as dancing is concerned, I found this this Leeds University study, that stated:

74% stated their job satisfaction as between seven and ten out of ten. No dancers said that their job satisfaction was 0-2.

www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/research/job%204262%20Sociology%20booklet.pdf

[AnyFucker]

Toodle pip

[namechangeguy]

Ah, accuse someone of an act, decline to back up your statement, then tell them to work it out for themselves. And yet at 22:27, you said 'oh dear' because I hadn't stuck around to respond to challenges to my points.

Meh. Bed.

[AnyFucker]

no, ncg, it doesn't work like that

no one feels inclined to use even more of their time to show you why your comment derailed the thread, it simply gives more oxygen to it

work it out for yourself

[namechangeguy]

I didn't think my point was more important. I thought it was another aspect of the same issue. If I did, please show me and I will apologise. I never thought that.

[AnyFucker]

Of course it is, Rosa

chuck a barb in

and then withdraw to "enjoy" the thread

it's quite blatant (and divisive), IMO

[rosabud]

Yes I noticed someone told me off for being patronising - something that NCG is rarely told off for, though he frequently indulges. I think the whole derailing attempt to silence the issue by claiming it is not really a serious issue and there are far more important things that we ought to be worrying about, is quite patronisng in itself.

[AnyFucker]

I'll live

Indeed you will