Having a hard time reconciling something...

[Tee2072]

I am not sure this is the right part of the FWR area but I can ask it to be moved!

So today my son four year old punched two people at school. He has been disciplined at school (thinking chair and had to go inside from playtime) and at home (major lecture and loss of TV privileges) for this behaviour.

The issue is that one of the people he punched is a girl.

My first instinct was to be more angry with him for hitting a girl.

I literally stopped in my tracks on the walk home as it occurred to me that my feminist tendencies were at thinking hitting a girl was worse than hitting a boy.

My husband is furious he hit a girl. He's mad our son is punching anyone, but the fact that one of the anyones is a girl has him really riled up. I asked him why it was worse because it was a girl and he answered 'old fashion values'.

So where do I go from here? Do I emphasize that hitting a girl is worse? Why is it worse?

What's the feminist answer?

Hitting anyone is bad.

I think that by emphasising that hitting the girl is wrong you're minimising the fact that hitting a boy is wrong too, and it seems to me that that's got to be part of the reason that male on male violence is so high.

Isn't it because women are generally smaller in stature than men? It is seen to be worse to pick on someone smaller than yourself so maybe this follows on from that?

But if he's four, surely there aren't differences? I mean, some girls will be smaller than some boys but there can't be a gendered difference in size and strength at that age.

Well one of the reasons for deploring male on female violence is the strength differential ( two men could 'have a fight' whereas most women wouldnt stand a chance against a man - theyd just get beaten up) but that wouldn't apply to 4 yr olds. I'd just focus on it being wrong to hit anyone at that age.

I agree with msrisotto, there are more implications as people grow up and their different sizes and strengths come in to play. I think it stems from traditional roles where many men did physical jobs and the women didn't (as much), so most men were stronger than women.

I can see why you had that reaction, but at your DS's age I would just focus on hitting anyone being a terrible thing to do. As he gets older you can bring in the concept of it being especially bad to get physical with someone smaller than them.

D'you know, I do increasingly think the strength thing is a red herring, even with adults.

In order for two people to have a fight, at least one of them has to want to do it, or to think it's ok to do it. Same thing if someone is getting beaten up - someone has to decide that it's acceptable to get violent.

I'm definitely focusing on 'don't hit anyone!!' But my husband's reaction 'he hit a girl?!?!' really hammered that idea home and I am just not sure if it matters, at this age especially, as LRD said.

He is one of the tallest in his class, although the youngest.

And it's one of the things I struggle with anyway, on a feminist basis. If we are equal, shouldn't we be totally equal, including when it comes to "rules" (for lack of a better word) of violence?

Because, of course, physically, women are weaker than men. We're usually shorter, our muscles develop differently etc. That's just physiology and isn't going to change even if we managed to get everything else.

Crossposts, LRD and PQW.

The thing is, though, that the boy he hit? Is actually the only one in the class that's taller than him! So I can't even emphasize how it's worse to hit someone smaller, when it's just bad to hit anyone!

Definitely don't tell him it's worse because it's a girl. I think a blanket 'you should not hit anyone' should be enough. Because really, if you hit someone your own size/bigger it's still bad behaviour and you still shouldn't do it.

I'd got with 'don't hit anyone'.

Actually, in my very limited experience of children, tall lads can have it really tough. It's the same with big men, actually. I've got a mate who is about 6'5, and if you go past a nasty pub at kicking out time, there is always someone who thinks it'll make them look well 'ard to try to beat up the big man.

*go not got. Sorry!

My husband actually has that problem as well LRD. He's only 6'2 but very bulky so he seems bigger than he is and he avoids all pubs at closing time for that reason/

Yeah, not fun.

He was actually waiting for a bus after work, so around 5, the other day when two drunk guys came out of the pub by the stop and started hassling him. He just turned his back and thank goodness his bus came quickly.

So ... but he's had this experience, so how does he connect that up to the idea that hitting girls is worse?

I mean, surely he doesn't deserve to be harrassed or beaten up by random violent blokes any more than anyone else!

I don't know, LRD. My husband isn't terribly introspective so I would imagine he wouldn't have thought about it. It's just ingrained in him, I guess, that hitting a girl is the worst thing ever.

Yeah, I think it would be for lots of blokes.

This is I guess where we segue into 'patriarchy is shit for men too', isn't it? Cos it is really upsetting that he is effectively assuming that he deserves to be hit more than a woman does, and that's horrible.

Isn't it also due to the stereotype that boys will fight each other, play fight, fight over girls (obviously not at 5 years old!) etc but girls stereotypically don't fist fight so, i dunno, to hit a girl is to cross a line?

LRD is talking a lot of sense.

tee, I don't know, but if you put it to him, does he want his son to grow up feeling as if he deserves to be hit more than a woman does, by these men that your DH has experienced harrassing him - would that maybe get him to see it differently? I'm just thinking about it really.

I also think msr is right there's an expectation that boys enjoy a play fight and girls don't.

She often does, Trills.

And yes, I guess that is the segue.

Reinforced this particular weekend by watching Jack Reacher save the girl...

Ta. I was tossing up about posting at all because I don't have kids, so thank you.

(When I have kids they are going to be a nightmare, aren't they? Just to punish me. )

Like LRD I'm inclined to think the strength difference thing between men and women is a red herring, especially nowadays when many women are physically fit and strong, trained in martial arts, fast etc (and have equal access to weapons!) and plenty of men are unfit sedentary weaklings.