Having a hard time reconciling something...

[Tee2072]

I am not sure this is the right part of the FWR area but I can ask it to be moved!

So today my son four year old punched two people at school. He has been disciplined at school (thinking chair and had to go inside from playtime) and at home (major lecture and loss of TV privileges) for this behaviour.

The issue is that one of the people he punched is a girl.

My first instinct was to be more angry with him for hitting a girl.

I literally stopped in my tracks on the walk home as it occurred to me that my feminist tendencies were at thinking hitting a girl was worse than hitting a boy.

My husband is furious he hit a girl. He's mad our son is punching anyone, but the fact that one of the anyones is a girl has him really riled up. I asked him why it was worse because it was a girl and he answered 'old fashion values'.

So where do I go from here? Do I emphasize that hitting a girl is worse? Why is it worse?

What's the feminist answer?

Yes. Total nightmare. The worst kids ever.

It's wrong to hit people who are weaker than you, people who are stronger than you, AND people who you don't know how strong they are.

Does that cover everyone?

I think so Trills.

Just wrong to hit, really.

Yes?

Well, that's the other piece kim.

He, and everyone else in his class, was being hit regularly by one boy at the beginning of the year. I so wanted to tell him 'it's okay to hit back if you're hit first' but it's hard to explain when it's okay to hit to a then three year old!

He's actually not four...until tomorrow.

The first thing you should do is ring the police. This is the same for accidents, btw - if you see an accident where someone needs medical attention, you ring the ambulance first, you don't go to help first. Last time I did my St John's course (which is yonks ago I admit) they were hammering this point home.

I know what you mean though, it's human nature to want to intervene. I would be more concerned in that situation about 1) whether me intervening would prevent me getting more effective help more quickly, eg. by phoning the police, 2) whether I'd exacerbate the situation, and 3) whether I'd end up being beaten up. I admit I wouldn't be thinking primarily about the rights and wrongs of hitting someone who is busy beating someone up, but I also wouldn't be trying to teach a child that it's ok to hit someone if you're defending someone else, because I think it's rarely the most sensible option.

Wrong to hit is the simplest way of dealing with it, give him other strategies.
It doesn't matter about the shibboleths of 'is it worse to hit a girl/person with a disability/old person/to initiate or retaliate?'

He's almost 4. Hitting is bad. Yell a protest, run away from the problem, tell a grown-up...

I've hit a bunch of people lots. In Tae Kwon Do.

Unfortunately, Goblin today it was all him. No provocation. I am still most displeased with him.

So he hit because...?
Work out the trigger and you are part way to finding an effective method of teaching him not to.

This is going to sound weird and awful, but in some small way it's a good thing.

He's being assessed for extra help and possible SNs and one manifestation of his SN is an inability to speak up for himself, i.e. say 'can I have that toy' or 'can I play with you?' or even 'I need help.'

None of us are happy it's manifest itself as violence, but at the same time all of us involved with him (teachers, Ed psych, me and DH) are very happy he's started to speak up when he needs or wants something and is starting to interact with his peers and his teachers.

So our goal at this point is getting him to use words and not fists! Teacher modelled appropriate words at the time, including getting his 'help card' (he has a pictograph schedule for the school day including a card with a hand on it, so he doesn't have to speak to get help if he needs it) and helping him to say 'can I have that toy' or what have you.

I don't mean to drip feed, but his SN really has nothing to do with the point of the thread, which is having to do with hitting girls, not the reasons for his hitting someone.

I don't see how it sounds awful. He's only 4. He'll learn.

I was responding specifically to goblin's 'trigger' comment.

The trigger is his inability to communicate due to his SN. Which, as I said, was not the point of the thread.

Sorry, I just meant, you sound as if you're feeling guilty about him and you also sound so lovely, I'm sure you've nothing to be guilty about.

It's not like you're one of those people who goes around saying 'ah, they all hit don't they, it'll teach the others to respect him' or somesuch crap.

I find it hard to reconcile this too, DH has a very strong "you never hit a woman/girl" code, and thought that I would be delighted that he is passing it onto DS. His words were "Isn't feminism about stopping violence against women?"

Oh, no, not at all. Well, maybe a tiny bit guilty that my first thought on hearing 'he punched two children today' was "WHOOT! He's doing stuff with other children."

But, TBF, that was his teacher's first reaction, too.

lissie Your DH has a point, although, of course, that's not all feminism is about! Of course the days of chivalry were also the days of female ownership and dowries and such.

Sorry, that should say 'whoot he's doing stuff with other children at school.'

He plays just fine in small groups, in case anyone is advance searching and seeing about his birthday party this past weekend.

I agree with the consensus view on the thread. In anti-violence education programs for little ones conducted by domestic violence agencies in the States, (the ones I am most familiar with), the message is generally "hands are not for hitting," "no one deserves to be hit," and "respect for all people." Gender/sex would not come into it except as it relates to issues regarding disrespect based on sex, stereotypes, etc. As a feminist, I think that reinforcing respect and equality in the message of non-violence is the right approach at this age.

Tee, on a personal note, my DS had somewhat similar issues as a child. His learning disabilities made communication difficult, and his frustration sometimes made him act out physically. FWIW, it sounds to me that you are taking the right approach. We did get some excellent guidance along the way to help DS, especially in school, and long story short, he is a productive (and non-violent) young adult.

Thanks Scone that's good to know.

lissie Your DH has a point, although, of course, that's not all feminism is about! Of course the days of chivalry were also the days of female ownership and dowries and such

exactly!

To OP: i totally get the cross-purposes thing, but maybe it's a question of priorities. Ok hitting anyone is wrong, but considering how common violence towards women is I don't see it as bad thing we try and underline to boys that we shouldn't.

Taking myself as an example I remember thumping my sister once when i was very young. I got royal telling off and my mother explained how as we got older I would likely end up bigger than her, and whilst I shouldn't be hitting anyone it was especially bad to hit anyone smaller than I was.

Needless to say I never thumped her again, and I have never once felt the urge to hit women. All this BS about women being weaker I kind of hate as well as in truth ok maybe the average man might have more raw physical strength than the average woman, but there are many martial forms developed to specifically negate strength which women can excel in. I am partuclarly fond of fencing and many of the most skilled fencers I have seen are women. I also find this woman particularly inspiring: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d%27Aubigny in any case I think a lot of violence towards women comes from this erroneous assumption that women are weak that we all sort of unconsciously go along with it.