Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

[MooncupGoddess]

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

www.mralondon.org/

bugbrennan.com/2013/04/20/statement-from-rad-fem-2013/

I have mixed feelings about the whole trans issue but have no hesitation in declaring the MRAs utter misogynist knobbers and am disappointed the London Irish Centre has seemingly caved into them.

Women can't be rapists in UK law.

Update on the conference which refutes the Sunday Times article:

sisterhoodispowerful.wordpress.com/

So many interesting points Flora much that I agree with. On the point about MRAs and the fact that many of these men seem to want to maintain power over the women of their class and resort to the age old violence of either actual &/or threats to rape and violence against women. Absolutely. I also agree with Mooncup that socialisation leads to men being perceived as lacking the skills that are suited to changes. Certain skills seem to be gendered and it is false to assume only women can do certain work.

I do think there are other issues, there is a dichotomous process under advanced capitalism with the requirement for two things: cheap flexible labour & unpaid work mostly carried out by women within the family.

Exploiting women as cheap labour, a move towards flexi, part time, low skilled non-manual and zero hrs contracts coupled with the neo-lib pressure to privatise everything from childcare to old age, education & health leaves women leaves carrying the burden of both paid and unpaid work.

This is very beneficial to the capitalist because labour is cheap and flexible whilst new markets in health and welfare can be pursued.

Men think they are having a hard time? well..... there seems to be more MRA activity since the financial downturn! maybe they should direct the ire at the real cause of their angst.

I have found what I had been reading, linky here readingfromtheleft.com/PDF/EngelsOrigin.pdf

I had saved it, haven't read all of it. Engle's ideas about social anthropology are increasingly being vindicated with new evidence. It's the forward to Pat Brewer's edition of the Origin. I know I have read about new evidence elsewhere but can't remember where

oops, left tab open too long before posting. Will now go back and read.

Gotta say, I always think it is problematic, the law on women and rape. I don't know the right answer.

Elohim feminists don't want to take rights away from men. They want to remove male privilege. It's not the same thing. You're arguing against a straw man as it were. The thing you think you're against just doesn't exist.

Elohim, forgive me for being blunt, but you seem to be believing some rather implausible things.

Did someone tell you radical feminists are in favour of women being allowed to commit violent crime with no legal consequence?

I am a bit gobsmacked that you believed that, actually.

Thanks Mini, that Engels introduction looks really interesting. Will read it properly later (am behind on my manchild slaughter quota so that has to be my priority today).

I had to namechange.

I hope the Biblical reference and the irony isn't lost on our Christian friend.

I have a joke for y'all

How did feminism start?

An unlocked kitchen door!

Thought this was an immense joke, hope you guys like it haha

I don't want to offend but I feel very strongly that A) free will is not god given B) doesn't exist because we are socialised into thinking in certain ways long before we develop the ability to think philosophically C) religion hampers the process of thinking philosophically.

Religion is man made as are all the other narratives we use to explain and give meaning to life. Man made god in his own image and used this belief to perpetuate inequality and falsehood, to appropriate the power of creativity away from women. Claiming that a single male in the body of god is responsible for giving life.

When it fails at an abstract and spiritual level, then enters the man himself......and look it is a man but this time he dies to give us life. God comes to us as a man, as a mere mortal that dies on the cross, how bloody and macabre is it and so male centred to believe that only in death can you give new life. So complete is this lie than many millions of men have lost their lives through war to defend it.

I agree that we are certainly socialized into thinking in certain ways.

I also believe, btw, that theologically this is valid. Even if you are the most hard-line Calvinist, 'free will' does not mean 'I can think and do exactly whatever I like', it means 'within the limitations of what it means to be human - ie., to have a brain that socializes me before I know of it - I am not God's puppet'.

This is, however, theology and not terribly interesting if you reckon it's all nonsense anyway!

MooncupGoddess you had better get a move on there are so many so little time.

Yes I believe the quote to be true. I used this quote in the general sense to get my point across - baby boys are born into the world with discrimination around them before they're able to voice their own opinion or voice their feelings. It's as if it's been decided in society already and they're innocently persecuted. For your information, I work side by side with both men and women who stand up for the human worth of all males, irrespective of race, sexual orientation or social status. We do this because it is right and strongly believe in doing so. However, this does not mean we're prejudice and only believe in fighting for males human worth - I am sure I can speak for my other supporters as well that in general we would fight for everyone were human worth is concerned. I mentioned Equal Rights for all - the saying goes for everyone....EVERYONE!!

Yes, there are lots of innocent babies and children dying out there - doesn't matter what gender but it is sadly happening for whatever reason it may be. Girls are not wanted in China, my friend who is a Doctor went out to rescue and adopt a Chinese Girl and she has grown to be a gorgeous girl so please don't try to patronise me because I have lived you know and you can not lead me into thinking I have been mislead. Doesn't matter whether I have met a Radical Feminist or not to be able to get my point across and you can either like it or lump it. I voice my opinion freely because I believe what I am doing is right - you will learn the truth one of these days, truth comes to us all in our time!!!!!!

elohim, do you not believe baby girls are also born (or, as tunip points out), not born, into a world of prejudice?

Is it not extremely sexist of you to only care about the boys?

I can't see how that has anything to do with equal rights.

Of course it matters what gender of children are dying, and the reason. To dismiss those baby girls as you do is disgusting.

But you have been misled, Elohim. You have been misled about radical feminists and what they believe.

You have some very odd ideas about them.

I sincerely doubt there is an ideology in the world that advocates killing baby boys.

I really find it difficult to believe anyone sincerely thinks that could possibly be true.

But men's rights activists do not campaign for Human rights in general. They campaign for male privilege. Either you are lying have been misled about the aims and objectives of the organisation you are involved with or... Actually I can't think of an or.

I've seen the light. Elohim's posts are so wise and true that they have converted me.

I'm off to join the MRA.

"And we're all off to Camden in the green, in the green..."

"The radical Fems, like lightning ran from the wisdom of the MRA"

"I learned all my life cruel women to blame,
So now I am part of the MRA game"

"And every man must stand behind the men behind the keyboards"

"By a lonely prison wall I heard a young girl calling Elohim they're taking you away. For you trod on rad fem corns and now they're killing all male-borns and a prison ship lies waiting in the bay. Shr...i...i.....i....i...i..i...ll, hiiiiii....iiiii....iiiii.iiigh, the rad fems voices cry..."

Well frankly Chub, if someone is gullible enough to believe radfems want to kill boy babies and let women commit violent crime without sanction, they're probably a bit of a sitting duck for whatever the MRAs want to feed them about the nature of their organisation.

I hope it is the light of Christ, basil.

Though I am enjoying the singalong.

Elohim,

Just one small question.

If you truly believe in equal rights for all, then why did you join a men's rights group, which focuses on only half the population, and not a human rights group?

I believe Amnesty International fight for all people, regardless of gender, perhaps they would be a better group for you to direct your energies.

Who says I don't care about little girls who are being aborted or killed? Of course it goes the same as well for baby girls - equal rights - we should all be treated fairly and I am totally against abortion. No Jesus, did not want the little ones to suffer and that is why he said let them come onto me. The MRA men that I work with are certainly not trying to brain wash me into thinking anything else but what I believe in - you seem to forget we are men and women working together. Killing baby boys has happened and it all started back with Herod and from what I have read in Rad Fem forums it is something you people seem to talk about. Why on earth would anyone write such a sadistic thing if you claim that you don't actually do it? Do you really want to get rid of the 'little fuckers' like I quoted that care worker earlier on? I guess we have different trains of thought but I stick to my guns. I joined a men's rights group because I know just how wicked, evil and vindictive some women can be - note I said SOME!!!! So don't go thinking I'm having a go at you lot out there. I am just relieved that The London Irish Centre saw the light and waved goodbye to all you people that will be attending the RAD FEM conference. You think I am possibly wasting my time and energies on this story - maybe I am with some of you but I merely wanted to congratulate the London Irish and express my disapproval of what Rad Fem is all about.....Here endeth the lesson!!!!!!!!!!!!

See, I don't have a problem with someone choosing to selectively campaign on the issues that affect men. I would like to see men being encouraged to make more use of mental health services so fewer men commit suicide. I would like more anti-violence education aimed at boys in school, which would mostly benefit the other men who are most likely to be the victims of male violence, but indirectly benefit women too, as it happens. And I would happily support a male-led campaign against the ridiculous gendering of childhood clothes and toys that focused on the targeting of boys with violent toys (rather than peaceful things like dolls and toy kitchens) and clothes with negative slogans ('Little Monster' etc).

Unfortunately the existing MRA movement has missed the point massively and is more concerned with blaming women and feminism for problems facing men, rather than coming up with convincing critical analysis of the ways that patriarchy harms men and doing something about it.

If there was a country in the world where boys were being selectively aborted and killed as babies that would be a huge human rights issue. It wouldn't be unimportant because they were boys. Only.... there isn't. And there is more than one place where these things DO happen to girls, so if you come along and bring up the issue of of selective abortion and try to twist it into an argument against rad fems having a conference, you WILL find it makes you look rather like you either don't know or don't care about what happens to girls, because you are asking people to worry more about imaginary stuff you think might happen to boys than actual stuff that is happening to girls in horrifyingly large numbers.

Oh, and one more thing.
'Yes, there are lots of innocent babies and children dying out there - doesn't matter what gender but it is sadly happening for whatever reason it may be. '
If they are being killed because of their gender and all the babies being killed because of their gender belong to the same gender then you're not going to get very far pretending their gender is irrelevant.

Elohim,

Have you actually read 90 % of the posts directed at you? Judging by your last post, I think not.

There are vindictive people around of both genders. That's just the way the world is. There are also lovely, caring, selfless people around of both genders.

No one but no one on this thread has said they want to get rid of any "little fuckers" (not my words, this quote is taken from you). A number of posters have told you how terrible they think it is. Yet you keep bringing it up.

Therefore, you are not reading any responses to your posts. Ergo you won't mind if other people ignore yours from now on, it's obviously a waste of time responding to you.

elohim - so if you care about baby girls, why are you an MRA? Why did you just now claim that gender 'doesn't matter', despite tunip pointing out to you that huge numbers of girl foetuses are aborted or killed?

Come on. If you really believe baby girls matter, I think you would have a better answer than that gender 'doesn't matter' when we're talking about gendered discrimination against baby girls.

Btw, not that I imagine Herod was any great shakes, but no, of course killing babies didn't 'start' with him. Any Christian - and anyone with the slightest knowledge of history - would know that.

I am sorry, I find you impossible to take seriously when you say things you must know to be untrue and silly.

I do find it deeply offensive you are claiming to be Christian and motivated by human rights concerns, when it stretches credibility to the limit to imagine either is the case.