Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

[StealthPolarBear]

I am infuriated by this attitude which seems to be prevalent. After women have had babies they only work if they have to, and go part time if they can. But I can't put into words why I work - why wouldn't I? I work for the same reasons as I did before I had children. I work for the same reasons as DH works.
Either of us could give up work and we'd cope. But that was true pre-children. Women continuing to work FT seems to be a slur on their man's ability to 'provide'.

I have to say this set up still baffles me. I am from a Scandinavian country where women all work, unless they are not able for health reasons. To choose not to work when you are perfectly able is unheard of, even more so if you are educated and used to have a successful career before children. I don't know any SAHMs in my native Finland. Children are all in childcare, and there is none of this agonising and hand-wringing should-I-shouldn't-I. Conversely, I also do not know any families in Finland where men have opted out of childcare and chores, where it is always the mother getting up in the night with the toddler, or always getting up in the morning when he has a lie in (I know several couples here in the Uk where this is the norm). Where I live now (provincial town in the south) most mothers I know either don't work or have part time work at home that they can fit around school hours. When my youngest was still at nursery there was one child who was there full time, 8am to 6pm every day as his mum worked FT. Jesus the bleating: 'that poor little mite...being left for an entire day...' When did a full time working mother become a rarity? I have lived in the UK for nearly 20 years and I still don't get this.

Sydlexic, in your experience your DH wasn't as good as you as being an SAHP. That's not a men and women fact,

My DH would be a better SAHP than me - but neither of us would be great, and we both want to work, so we work.

Drowning, good post.

"pollypandemonium Thu 04-Apr-13 00:23:23

Stealth I'm not sure what you're objecting to - that people put men down because 'their' women 'have to' work? I think that's a very 1950s attitude and I have never come across it, even in older people."

I'm objecting to the assumption that I have come across that there needs to be a "good reason" for a woman to work after having children - financial or otherwise. That if her OH earns enough to keep them both, that she would by default be a SAHM. I'm not convinced men get put down if their wives work, but there must be a "reason" - is she one of these career women? Does she struggle to care for her own children?None of these are aimed at dads who work.

Poor/working class women have always worked.

Can we quote Miriam Gonzalez Durantez (Miriam "Not Clegg", as I often refer to her)?

My husband has three children, he has a much busier career than I have, and he has a busy wife. And nobody would ask him how he balances everything?

Rusty I think the extra curricular activities is a point. When working FT I couldn't organise anything extra for my first child and it made me sad too. Now I'm on mat leave I can look at dance and music and lots of fun free stuff - all that happens during the boundaries of normal working hours.

drowninginlaundry your post is interesting but simplistic.

Have you ever been unemployed? I have for just a few months and found it incredibly hard to get a job. It is so much easier finding a job if you are already in one. In fact I might post about me finding a job as it was a sobering experience.

Maybe the childcare in Finland is far superior to that on offer in the UK.

Perhaps the fact the domestic work is shared is the key here.

I also wonder what the gender pay gap is in Finland. There is still a huge pay gap in the UK. In my current role I was on the senior leadership team - me and the other woman on the team earned significantly less than the males on the team.

As for getting up in the night - in the first few years I often think the night calls are due to comfort feeding if you bf. I bf my first child and although I worked FT (but had a 16 month period where I did not work and looked after my child FT) so I did find it was me who got up in the night up until 3 anyhow. So I did find it tough when I first when back to work. I didn't even tell anyone at work I was bfing as it wouldn't be the done thing. Also I never could express.

When I returned to FT work I worked really long hours on a FT basis (partly due to the economy and the state of work and my role) once you add in a London commute to that mix it becomes hard to see and spend quality time with you children.

And (touch wood) I have really healthy children and have been healthy myself so have seldom needed to take any emergency leave. I was fortunate in that my DH had a family friendly boss so he could do pick up and drop offs and take the hit for any sick days.

But I did also find that my DH and I never got a holiday at the same time other than for 1.5 weeks a year. Tell me what do they do in Finland when both parents work.

This is because once you factor in taking off holidays for immunisations, check up, days when the nursery is closed etc etc, then you can't both have time off together - so it is hard to have time off as a family.

morethanpotatoprints as I am now on mat leave for the second time I totally agree with your post - that for me I love being a sahm the freedom in some ways. I love that I can plan an outing at the drop of the hat as I now have 2 healthy children and babies are portable. I can go to an exhibition, go for a long walk - soak up the cultural richness of London.

You say "Its great to come and go as I please and not to have to do as a boss man says to get money to pay for more stuff." I could not agree more!! However, for me the money will run out so I will have to work at some stage but I'm in denial. But again I live in London there is so much to do on my door step. I wake up - even when I am sleep deprived thinking - where shall we go today. Again, having healthy children and a bit of money to scoot around is key here - lots of people don't have that freedom. I do find the housework quite difficult at times and a cause of fights with my DH but we are working through it.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou I got quite angry when people tried to make out I was unemployable and I think it is to do with the status of SAHMs. I changed jobs and went through a stage where I was unemployed - I remember going for interviews and wanting to scream on the inside. I did struggle to find a job but that was because of the prejudice of employment agents and the like not because of my skill set. Don't let anyone get you down and be confident in your own abilities.

DrowninginLaundry

I love mn as I learn something new every day - apparently you can go up to 7.5 weeks annual leave in Finland depending upon length of service so that must make a difference.

The following comes from a govt report:

"In Finland, women have a long history of participating in working life and half of all wage-earners are women, but the labour market is still divided by gender and a majority of women are working in sectors that have, on average, lower pay levels than typically male- dominated sectors. However, the pay difference between men and women is very small in the public sector when the impact of some background variables (age, education and training, work experience, the requirements of the job) is eliminated. Pay schemes based on job evaluation and performance appraisal have promoted the implementation of equal pay.
Women account for 24% of the top central government posts and 38% of all managers and supervisors. Thirteen percent of municipal managers and 40% of all ministers, municipal councillors, members of Parliament and members of the EU Parliament are women.
Finland?s Gender Equality Act lays down an obligation for employers to draw up a gender equality plan. The plan must include payroll charting and proposals for action to advance gender equality and to reduce pay differences. A number of statutory schemes, the right to day care and a comprehensive day care system support the integration of working and family life and the possibility for parents of small children to work."

That explains a lot.

Trying to get day care in London can be really hard and expensive.

Hmmmm I'm not sure I but this children are deprived because they can't so activities thing. I have 3 DC 8, 5 and 2 and I have been pretty lucky as I have experience all ways of doing things apart from full time sahm. I had 3 maternity leaves of almost a year, I've worked part time and I e worked from home. Now I work full time out of the home, my 3 DC are in full time childcare (after school club, childminder, day nursery respectively) and they are busier than me and do more activities than ever!

Ok the 2y olds activities are mainly centred around his nursery, but I think that is appropriate at his age and I pay for a good quality one so he does lots of singing, music, outdoor play etc - that's all they really want or need at that age IMO. He is with his friends, he is happy. When he was at home with me and I was trying to work or doing the school run he realistically spent most o his time in the car, playing on his own or watching Thomas the tank engine.

The 5y old has a whale of a time at his childminders, he loves her dc and often refuses to leave. She has the time and patience to bake with him etc.

The older one is more than happy to be at asc as he plays football, goes swimming etc, all the things he would be constantly moaning to do at home with me complaining he is bored.

I did everything with dc1 as a baby, a bit with dc2 as was on mat leave and virtually nothing with dc3 apart from nursery and

Sorry! Playing at home and my considered opinion now is it doesn't make a huge amount of difference as long as their is quality time in the evenings and at weekends. I am finding that working ft back in the office is actually far less stressful than wfh and trying to juggle everything, pick them up from school etc. As a result when I get home at 6 (most nights I try to be strict) we really want to see each other, help with homework, do bathtimes and stories etc which I have to confess I often found a chore before. Weekends also more quality time I think.

I know everyone is different but this 50/50 approach works for us. We both work, both do childcare and chores. No one gets stuck slogging away doing everything and I feel we are showing our children good equal role models. I really don't feel they are deprived during the week as we pay for good quality childcare where they so loads (and sometimes kids want to just play!) and due to duel incomes they have a very good standard of living, they get experiences we never had as kids like travel, skiing, sports, music lessons etc.

Don't feel bad or guilty! I've tried it all and it is self-defeating. A happy non stressed mum is what's best for them and you do what you need to do to achieve this.

Of course men are as capeable of parenting as mums,why wouldn't they be?
biggest myth we ever swallowed is childcare is wimmin work.thus ghettoising us
the expectation of women giving up work is deep rooted but It's not inevitable

I work FT but if I was totally and utterly honest if my DH earned a fortune would I still be pursuing my career to intently - I honestly dont know, some days I would do anything to have less stress. I couldnt be full time SAHM as frankly kids drive me nuts but I would probably work less hours. A little part of me (only a very little part) quite likes the idea of being a kept lady, but only because DH is a lovely man. If he were a git I doubt I would think the same way!

rubyrubyruby why would they not do extra curricula activities - the after school clubs take them at our school?
Although to be honest my DS hates them - we now have an agreement only two activities a week.

chocsspread - Dh and I both work full time,and our dd still does all those activities. Full time work doesnt stop me from doing it, but it is because I have a very hands on dh.

sherbet

A lot of people don't use schools for their dcs extra curricular activities. We never had. For us its a mix of a local dance school 2 evenings a week, choir practice and orchestra 1 evening a week and private music tuition. No after school club could commit themselves to taking one dc across town to access this.

Choosing After school activities that demand your time prevent you working
You've chosen to prioritize after school activities in preference to work
We don't attend any such activities as we are at work.imo kids don't need a full schedule

My dd would strongly disagree with you Scottish she feels she does need to do her lessons and classes. I hope I have chosen to use my time providing the type of life my dc want and need, over working for an employer. This is just my opinion though, I'm sure there are many other views.
Its a bit different for us though as dd already knows what she wants to do when she is older, has it all mapped out and works extremely hard to realise her ambitions. I am very proud she has this sorted at only 9 years old.

I feel like this has happened to me, although I've desperately tried to keep working.

It makes me despair for my own girls, to be honest.

I worked part time but my career just went backwards while this happened.

Now I've been made redundant due to the changes in the NHS. I've worked my arse off trying to juggle everything, got a first-class degree, and I'm now a 40 year-old single mum, about to live on benefits. Your thread topics sums me up, despite my best intentions.

good post choc, and it's true women often stay out of the work place because it's difficult to get back in to it after beung a sahp or just being on a slightly extended ml. If we valued the role of sahp we might actually have fewer people doing it for as they wouldn't have to!

if it was assumed everyone took some time out after children at some point there would be no discrimination against sahp coming back to the work place.

:( Kate sorry to hear that

I read this with interest. I went part time BEFORE i got married in the hope that I wouldn't have to be asking to go PT when I had my kids. Luckily it worked out and now me and DH work part time and cover the child-care. One thing I would say is that I do feel that the children can get too dependent on you if you are always around, so i do find my DCs are taking longer to be independent of me for play etc. Anyone else find this?

I haven't found that at all. I've been told that that will be the case by people who did put their children in to nursery. Mine are 2 and 1 and very independent, I smile and nod when people project their parenting insecurities on to me. It seems the kindest option. These are usually the same people who think you spoil babies by cuddling them.