Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

[StealthPolarBear]

I am infuriated by this attitude which seems to be prevalent. After women have had babies they only work if they have to, and go part time if they can. But I can't put into words why I work - why wouldn't I? I work for the same reasons as I did before I had children. I work for the same reasons as DH works.
Either of us could give up work and we'd cope. But that was true pre-children. Women continuing to work FT seems to be a slur on their man's ability to 'provide'.

Maybe if you have a DD you'll give a flying fuck about how her career choices may be limited as an adult because women raise the children while men work. I certainly do. I don't want my DD to be influenced by constraints of society, but I'm sure she will be, we all are.

Why will they be limited though? Mine certainly weren't and won't be. If FB is anything to go by (ha!) my peers are all achieving well in their respective careers. You simply cannot change the mindsets of people who make downright rude comments like that. All you can do is set a positive example to your OWN children of what a healthy parental relationship looks like.
And no children for me, so a non issue on that front!

"Stuffez because society's assumptions can limit real people. They can make girls think that that is what is expected of them. They allow a generation of men to believe that their career take precendence. And they cause me to scream myself hoarse in my head. Having something important to you dismissed is quite irritating - and rightly so I'd say.

Absolutely. I have always made it very clear to y children that I had a career-and a very successful one before I decided to stop it to be at home. And I bang on at tedious length about how we came to the decision and why and we have always made sure that they have loads of different role models who have different priorities. Earning money is not the only way to be a good role model.

Completely agree, and have argued against the "have a career to be a role model" argument further up/down.
Stuffez, I suppose it's the same argument as advertising. Many people claim advertising doesn't work on them. Advertising and culture influence almost all of us to varying degrees.

In that case what, practically, can you do with those rude comments questioning your decisions, apart from a short "it works for us, thanks."
You can do nothing apart from setting your own example, and it still seems to yet again boil down to women belittling other women's decisions.

X posts sorry.
I like the analogy with advertising and do agree to some extent. For me, more than anything, teaching children to question "the way things are" is of crucial importance. I many not have children, but as a year six teacher I feel massively privileged to be in the position where my pupils are just starting to know their own minds and form their own opinions.

Is there something to be said about working hours when comparing the UK to other countries? I think that in parts of the UK there is a working culture where 'full time' is actually well over 40hrs a week.

I know when I lived in London that I was out of the house far too long for childcare. I wasn't in some crazy city lawyer environment, just a normal one, but everybody I knew in London left the house about 8 at the latest and got home about 7:30/8. No childcare is open those hours.

I moved to Scotland five years ago and immediately noticed it is FAR more acceptable to leave the office at 5pm to go for a run or an evening walk or to see a show or film... not just where I worked but city-wide among all the people I socialised with in many different jobs. This means that the parents who have to leave at 5 don't stand out so much and it's not an issue to work a normal 8hr day.

I can see how a parent of either sex could easily work a full-time 37-39hr week but I don't honestly know why anybody with children would choose to work 50hrs a week or more and not see their children on a weekday.

Stuffez

In all honesty after my 3rd dc now 9, I only witnessed the opposite. I had comments from people who assumed I had taken ml and was going to return to work.
I think I would have got those sort of comments post ds1 and 2 (21, 18) as it was far more acceptable and expected to be a sahm then.

I didn't express my point very well in that last post.. what I mean is...

Maybe some people assume that a woman with children won't want to work full time because they assume that full-time work means giving all your waking hours to your employer (10 or 12 a day) with no work/life balance and being at the mercy of spontaneous and random late night working on deadlines with no ability to say 'enough' to the boss.

I've heard so many people on mn who have jobs like this and don't feel they can complain as others say 'at least you have a job'.

Clearly few families (if any) can manage with two people working like this.... and maternity leave (as well as gender assumption in society) makes it easier for the woman to break out of that work pattern than the man.

I'm am trying to think of one family I know where the Dad has went part time after they had children and I cannot think of one.

Why is there this assumption that the woman goes part time?

For us the best decision was for me to give up work, I supported DH through a masters and when he was temping, he was at the start of his career, my career was established but in a very specialised area (not easy to find work in, I know shot myself in the foot with that degree).

I remember getting a seasonal part time job a few years back and some of the comments yes mostly from women were soooo condesending like from SIL "oh SK you've got a wee job well done that's great you will be fab" DH actually said you know she has worked before.

DS will start nursery in August and I'm getting a lot of "what will you do with yourself, will you look for a wee job" ie part time for pin money, no I e has asked will I be returning full time or to my previous career.

It's different perspectives. I was a SAHM for years, and now work FT, and although I rarely get any comments addressed to me directly, my attention was certainly focused differently in each role.

But the bit working fathers is spot on. A colleague took 5 months maternity leave and then returned to work, with her husband as a SAHD. I had to sit with a room full of working fathers feeling sorry for the child, without any thought that a) the child had two parents, and it was the other one who was at home, and b) they had all worked through their children's childhoods.

I haven't really had this. I had dc1 the year after I hit the pinnacle of my career. Those who know me never doubted I would be back at work or that my career would continue to be important to me. Those who don't know me, well I have no idea what they're saying behind my back

I am in the lucky position of being senior enough to be able to decide how I spend my time. Eg my nanny called me on Tuesday afternoon to say dc2 wasn't well. I immediately called dh and we discussed which of us had the flexibility to cancel meetings. This time it was me, so I was home within 45 mins. Dh did also come home about an hour later. my nanny knows if she calls and I am in a meeting to call dh straight away or to call him first. I tell this story because the first belittling of women's contribution pst dcs happens at home, everyone else (family, friends, acquaintances and society at large) is just an echo. It's hard but important work - I have had to really pull dh up at times times to not behave as if his career is more important than mine.

If you look at statistics about the money that women earn, and the hours they work, then it very much does matter that people have the assumption that women's careers are secondary. The % of women who continue in ft careers after having children is quite low. And that leaves them hugely vulnerable. Look at divorce stats, and then you will realise that many children are growing up in households where money is tight, and there's a lot of stress, cos the mother stayed home part or full time, and now she's desperate to get child support, or benefits etc as she's on her own.

And as for the argument that it's women going to work that pushed house prices up - erm, does no-one remember Thatcherism? The huge tax breaks and incentives designed to encourage people to buy houses, at the same time as council housing became all but extinct? THAT was the reason for dramatic house price increases in the 80s.

The assumptions made about the roles of men and women when they become parents aren't just an irritant, they are pretty much key to understanding the reasons why women earn less, have less access to higher status/pay jobs, and are more vulnerable within society. To say nothing of how they affect the dynamics within family relationships.

Thank you kickass, exactly what I was trying to say

Stealth, I agree with your position except where you say SAHM is a valid choice.

Surely, society assumes that women will downgear at work once a woman has children because overwhelmingly, women DO prove employers right by leaving the workforce or going pt.

Therefore, other women exercising the choice to SAHM or go pt after children is detrimental to your choice to work ft. It is not a choice without socio-political implications.

You cannot rail against societal assumptions that are proven right again and again. I say this as someone who did go pt after dd but am now working ft.

Housewife role fulfills and maintains patriarchy by reinforcing women at home,man work
It's impossible to talk about societal expectations and not take on board impact of actions
Going back to op posed,is assumed women will go pt because so many do

Hmm interesting. Will need to have a think about that. I struggle to criticise choices other families make. I'm sure they're influenced by outside factors but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.

Yes, but surely women exercising their right to not work is to suit themselves and their families.
So are you proposing a woman who doesn't work, should get a ft job because society in general believe that women will work pt or be sahp after children. We should lose our choices for the greater good of influencing societies belief system?

Morethan, one can acknowledge that one's choices have a wider impact on society and still make those choices.

I just ate a packet of crisps. That impacts on my taste buds (yum) but on my health, which long term impacts me, my family and the NHS. I'm still free to make the choice and frankly I didn't think at all about the NHS, but that doesn't mean that thousands of people all choosing to eat crisps this week won't impact the NHS.

Individuals exercise choices that have impact eg recycling,diet,smoking
These examples are considered so significant that there govt. policy to modify behavior
Housewife as a choice impacts as it maintain patriarchy,is economically inactive,removes skilled women from workplace

Oh ok, I see.

So its not that working mums are saying sahms should do what we are doing because you are letting the side down moreover, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Is this what a lot of working mums mean, because I can see this. I can sympathise with working mums who experience less than equal terms and society believing they should all be pt pin money earners after dc. That would clearly piss me right off If I was a career woman.

Scottish

I would really like to know what line of work you are in, because I am so nosy/ may one day need some advice. Totally understand if you want to tell me to mind my own.
Before dc I was in entertainment industry and 20+ years ago was earning the amount now that is quoted that only 8% of women earn. I was considered a very high earner at the time.

Yes,housewifery reinforces patriarchal women at home,not in work role
When women not at home,and ft working this as op notes is seen as unusual
Then the woman not pt,not giving up work is deemed to have not conformed to norm after birth

It is a shame that society sees this as the norm, because it is also detrimental to those who have chosen not to work.

There are many women and men who see the role of a woman who doesn't work as a housewife, childcarer, domestic, downtrodden, dim individual.

Now I know this person exists and I have met a few, but I find they are not representative of the women who don't work, that I know in the whole.

I don't think any change will happen until society in general is able to look at people as individuals rather than a stereotype of the group in which they choose to belong.

Even if you are not a career woman, your dd might well want to be.

So all these SAHMs going on about how they are still a good role model for their children even though they don't work have by their own actions already damaged their dds' choice to work ft after children by their very own choice to step away from the workplace.

I agree with snatch that it is possible to be aware of the implications of one's choice whilst still exercising the choice anyway. But it is important to recognise the implications of that choice to begin with.