I don't know why I bother.....anyone else the same?

[mcmooncup]

I use Facebook. Put up funny posts, pictures...bla bla bla.

Everytime I post something I usually get about 30-40 likes.

Yet EVERYTIME I post something vaguely feminist. Blank. Zero. Occasional like.

I find it so depressing. Today I have posted about International Women's Day and linked to the letter in the Guardian.


How do we break down this wall of silence?

Why do people not want to be associated with 'ranty feminists'?

Our communication seems to be very isolating, even though it's not meant to be.

Qu's I ask myself....

Why can people not see what I can see?
Is the harm done to them so 'normal' that they can't see it?
Are they scared of being ostracised into this rad fem group if they speak out?
Are they afraid of losing their families/jobs/attractiveness to males?

I just wondered if we could have a discussion and try and learn what is it that non feminists hear when they hear a feminist talking. It might help us improve our communication.

[vesuvia]

MTSgroupie wrote - "There are various reasons why men earn more than women. Is it sometimes because of sexism? Of course but I suspect that this only accounts for a small number of cases. But to listen to some women talk, it's all a conspiracy by men to exploit women and to strip power from them and to keep them subservient to men blah blah blah."

If you can only suspect that sexism is rare, why do you then choose to believe the patriarchal status quo version of events? Why do you assume that the many women who are hampered by sexism are not genuine?

What is the (existing) power that you think women think is being stripped from women?

[slug]

Thank you curryeater for explaining to namechangeguy why he's mansplaining. I don't have the energy to get into that conversation yet again.

Of all your friends who you talk about MTSgroupie who have adjusted their working lives to fit in with their children, what percentage of them are men? Or is it only the women who put their careers and earning potential at risk by adapting their lives? Have you wondered why that is? And what of men who want to limit their career prospects by adapting their work around their childcare? Do you know of any? Have their careers suffered? Do they find going back to full time career mode as difficult as women you have known who took career breaks?

[Snorbs]

myname1, a more suspicious person might imagine that you're trying to stir up some form of retaliation. But I'm sure that's not actually the case because it would be impossibly juvenile, wouldn't it?

[Snorbs]

Uh-huh. So you're a new member to mumsnet who just coincidentally has joined at a time when ARSSE is stirring and your entire posting record consists of what ARSSE is up to and encouraging people to join their site and have a go at them.

I have no idea why I would find this in the least bit suspicious.

[MTSgroupie]

slug - I think that I know where you are going with this.

The women that I mentioned made the choice free from pressure from men. For them spending quality time with their children trumped the joys of the daily commute to some office where they spend their working day chained to a desk and PC.

I accept that in some relationships the woman is expected to put their career on hold instead of the man. However, your starting position seems to be that is the default for all relationships and that my friends were inevitably forced by husbands or society's expectations to put their careers on hold.

[MTSgroupie]

vesuvia - please point to where I said that there are no genuine cases of sexism?

I was offering reasons why some women are paid less than men. I didn't say that there were no cases of women being paid less than men because of sexism.

[TheRealFellatio]

Some people just avoid anything remotely political on FB. I know I do. I never 'like' or share or comment on anything pertaining to a political persuasion of any sort. My friends are too diverse a mix, and I am somewhere in the middle so I just stay out of all of it.

[slug]

Where I'm going with this is:

1. Feminism is what got you to your job in the first place. Whether you think it is boring or not, feminism is behind your right to an education, a job and maternity leave.
   

1. Why aren't the men taking the burden of childcare? You only talked about women you know who put their careers on hold/went part time, not men. That's why I asked that question. Do you know any couples where the roles were reversed? If not, what does that say about where the burden of childcare routinely lies?
   

1. Have you never examined why it is almost always the women whose careers are put at risk by having children? Why is it that 1 in 7 women are made redundant after maternity leave]] yet this same risk to careers does not happen to men? If feminists aren't asking that question then who is going to protect you and the job you have thanks to feminism in the first place?
   

1. When men do take time off for childcare (and they do, my DH was a SAHD for years) why does this not affect their career prospects in the same way it affects women's? Why aren't men encouraged to take time off? It seems to me to be a huge waste of investment in women's education to encourage them to think a career is their right then snatch it all away when they have babies. Men have babies too. Once the breastfeeding part is over there is no physical reason why men can't be the full time/part time parent. Yet it's still so rare. Why is it expected that men will carry on while women stay at home?
   

It's by asking these questions and shedding light on the underlying structure of society that the very feminists you find boring make life better for you and your children.

[FloraFox]

MTS I'm glad to see you and your family have benefitted so much from the efforts of feminists. Hopefully the benefits will not have been eroded for your DDs and DNs and perhaps things might even be better for them, despite it all being so boring for you.

[vesuvia]

MTSgroupie wrote "vesuvia - please point to where I said that there are no genuine cases of sexism?"

I didn't claim that you said that. I prefer to repeat what I've already asked you, but this time highlighting a few key words in bold:

If you can only suspect that sexism is rare, why do you then choose to believe the patriarchal status quo version of events? Why do you assume that the many women who are hampered by sexism are not genuine?

What is the (existing) power that you think women think is being stripped from women?

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

It is an awfully big coincidence that, in spite of the right to request flexible working being equal for both parents, the majority of requests come from women.

MTS I don't think your friends were forced by their husbands by any means, but they did make their choice in the context of a society where women do more childcare than men.

[MTSgroupie]

Aren't some people being a bit patronizing towards women? I mean, my friend's husband would rather she returned to work and let friend's mum do the school run (the 2nd income would help greatly). My friend however loves their mum-son chats in the car during the school run. She loves stuff like watching DS play football after school. And then there is the karate club.

I said patronising because it assumes that my friend is somehow too weak minded to realise that her actions are influenced by social conditioning as opposed to a genuine desire to be a SAHM.

[MTSgroupie]

Just to be clear, I don't consider feminist issues to be boring. I just find the constant banging of feminist drums to be boring.

My friends chose to be SAHMs because their jobs were just a means of paying the bills. But to some feminists, here was yet another example of women being influenced or pressured by society to put their career on hold. I know that it is hard to believe but for many women, if money wasn't an issue, they would rather be SAHMs and they would rather the menfolk be the ones to spend 2 hours a day stuck on the M25.

[MTSgroupie]

vesuvia - you are putting words into my mouth and then you expect me to defend them.???

[mcmooncup]

Patronising is a word non-feminists use a lot.

It is patronising to point out that there is inequality?

It is patronising to say that everybody's choices are not made in a vacuum - men and women?

SAHM is no problem for most feminists - I have to say I have a bit of a problem with it because it is mostly women who are making themselves financially vulnerable by giving up their jobs and as people are trying to point out, is it just a coincidence that it is for the most part women?

There was a really good thread about this not so long ago by akemma (sp) and the very real vulnerabilities of women giving up their jobs and independence on having children. MTS you said in your last post "My friends chose to be SAHMs because their jobs were just a means of paying the bills" - for me, it is never just paying your bills - it is a big thing being able to pay your own bills. Massive in fact. I know you will say, oh but you are so cynical about marriage etc. but the fact (again) is that 1 in 3 marriages end in divorce, so there are potentially a lot of women who rely on men financially, and when the 1 in 3 of us women experience divorce - what is our earning potential going to be if we have given up our careers?

I don't really want a WOHM vs. SAHM debate but I guess if we do we do........the point is that it is incredibly naive to say that women make choices based on "what they want" and "jobs just pay bills". `

Feminism advocates shared parenting so both parents have childcare responsibiilty and equal career risks on having children.

[AnyFucker]

I was offering reasons why some women are paid less than men. I didn't say that there were no cases of women being paid less than men because of sexism.

So because it is happening to other women, and no-one that you personally know, all the boring feminists should stop wanging on about it ?

Have you a large dose of "All right Jack" syndrome going on with you, MTS ?

[MTSgroupie]

"Patronising is a word non-feminists uses a lot"

Now we are supposed to have a list of words that identify us as non-feminist???

You asked me why your non-fem fb friends blank your feminist postings. I suggested to you the reasons why. Instead of self examination you have chosen to make me the issue thus demonstrating the reason why many people show a a reluctance to engage you on feminist issues.

Basically, the answer to your OP is in the feminists postings that followed. Anyway,this thread has gone the way of feminist conversations in the real world ie boring and annoying

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I find feminists horribly matronizing.

Also, I don't have a drum. Not even a misogynistic one.

What exactly is 'banging of feminist drums'? Is it to do with having the indecency to be a woman who expresses what she thinks?

I can quite see how feminists who never express their opinions might be so much more acceptable than the nasty, aggressive kind who have the gall to open their mouths.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Ah, cross posted.

She's off.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Arf at feminists being unable to self-examine.

Most of us bought into those misogynistic stereotypes of feminists before we grew up.

[PretzelTime]

I think 'banging of feminist drums' is when a woman writes/talks about/ even mentions women's issues. A bit uncomfortable for a lot of people - I used to think so too.