I don't know why I bother.....anyone else the same?

[mcmooncup]

I use Facebook. Put up funny posts, pictures...bla bla bla.

Everytime I post something I usually get about 30-40 likes.

Yet EVERYTIME I post something vaguely feminist. Blank. Zero. Occasional like.

I find it so depressing. Today I have posted about International Women's Day and linked to the letter in the Guardian.


How do we break down this wall of silence?

Why do people not want to be associated with 'ranty feminists'?

Our communication seems to be very isolating, even though it's not meant to be.

Qu's I ask myself....

Why can people not see what I can see?
Is the harm done to them so 'normal' that they can't see it?
Are they scared of being ostracised into this rad fem group if they speak out?
Are they afraid of losing their families/jobs/attractiveness to males?

I just wondered if we could have a discussion and try and learn what is it that non feminists hear when they hear a feminist talking. It might help us improve our communication.

[namechangeguy]

OP, is a man's point of view welcome on her, or is this directed at women only?

[AnyFucker]

Don't be shy, namechangeguy

< I made a little ditty >

[namechangeguy]

Here's my rap, it might be crap ;

Feminism seems a little simplistic, for a mainstream political movement. Most centrist political movements have a degree of acceptance that all protagonists must work together and accommodate differing views. Hence, (in the UK) Labour move towards banks and big business; Tories accept that the NHS and free education are a good thing for society, etc etc.

When you get to the fringes, we see Marxist/Leninist movements, or BNP/EDL parties. These extremists tend to get very simplistic - its all the fault of the darkies, or the rich, so let's lump the blame on one easily-identified group. Take their money, or deport them, and everything will be rosy.

In a similar way, feminists are perceived as wanting to dump the blame for everything at the doorstep of Men as a group. Men and women are brought up and educated in the same environment, by and large. An ignorance of the Patriarchy is common to both, in equal measure. But any man who inadvertently does something perceived as taking advantage of his gender is castigated, regardless of his awareness of the bigger picture. Any woman doing the same thing is patronised as 'poor love, she doesn't know what she is doing'.

When you only have a hammer, everything has to look like a nail. Feminist's hammer is the concept of the Patriarchy, so everything it bashes has to be male. Society, which is what the Patriarchy is, is all of us, male and female, and it is far more complicated than feminism makes it out to be.

Now, please feel free to write this off as another 'what about da menz' whinge. But honestly, it isn't. It is why I feel that a very important message is getting lost.

[slug]

No, it's no a what about the menz, it's a fine example of mansplaining

[MTSgroupie]

Kim - slug's 10:44 post is one reason why I find feminism annoying. I mean, I don't see The Light so it's probably because I rather not think about something that is 'obvious' to an enlightened soul like slug.

Its this patronising attitude that I find a conversation killer.

[namechangeguy]

Is it really, slug? If so, I am at a loss as to how to have an open discussion about these matters. I will happily leave the thread and continue to read.

[vesuvia]

namechangeguy wrote - "Feminist's hammer is the concept of the Patriarchy, so everything it bashes has to be male."

My understanding of the concept of patriarchy is that it is a set of values that can be held by males or females. In my experience, feminism opposes patriarchal values, irrespective of who holds them.

[MTSgroupie]

Prom - I am not saying that feminists are wrong, in the same way that I don't think that there is anything wrong with being a socialists but when everything is the fault of men or rich people then it just becomes boring.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I expect socialists find it boring, too.

[curryeater]

namechangeguy, what is mansplainy about your post (if you will let me do a little common-or-garden explaining, in this case, because you asked) is that you make the terribly patronising assumption that where your views differ from those of feminists, it is because the feminists just don't get how complicated things really are.

You could have put that point in a less mansplainy way by saying "I think we can achieve more by finding common ground between the interests of women and the traditional interests of patriarchy, rather than a straight forward oppositional discourse" - in other words, presenting it as a difference of opinion, rather than the others just not getting it.

FWIW, I do not agree with you. I don't think feminism has anything to gain from a theoretical position of cooperation with patriarchy. I do think individual women have to cooperate every day with the patriarchy, and many of them are feminists. But not-punching-the-man-in-the-face-who-is-groping-you-because-society-sanctions-this-behaviour-and-you-live-in-a-small-town-and-you-might-meet-him-socially is not a principled position, it's just getting by. Like sucking up to bankers, because they have all the money.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

NCG - my problem is we're not looking at an area like distributing a limited pot of money (the social services budget) in the best way, where we can argue about prioritising different needs and finding the best compromise.

But this is an issue of human rights. And you can't be a little bit equal, or equal up to a point. Either women (or black people, or gay people) have equal rights, or they don't. There is no compromise position in the middle where I offer to meet the author of the "Surrendered Wife" (or someone else who opposes feminism) half way.

[MTSgroupie]

The women in my extended family includes an accountant, a corporate lawyer, an IT project manager and a senior NHS administrator.I myself am a senior manager at an American bank in the City. In my world 'equality' exist.

I accept that it does not exist in everybodies life but a lot of the time it has nothing to do with sexism.

I have friends who took career breaks in order to spend more time with young children. This will affect their job and salary prospects when they rejoin the job market.

I have friends who had their hours reduced such that they work 10 to 3pm or 3 days a week in order to spend more time with their children. This will affect their salary.and promotion prospects.

I have friends who aren't as driven as their alpha male colleagues. Instead of jockying for position and glory or jumping from job to job, these women look for stabilty and family friendly jobs. Like the above, this too will affect their salary and promotion prospects.

There are various reasons why men earn more than women. Is it sometimes because of sexism? Of course but I suspect that this only accounts for a small number of cases. But to listen to some women talk, it's all a conspiracy by men to exploit women and to strip power from them and to keep them subservient to men blah blah blah.

Are there real feminist issues? Of course there are. I'm not claiming otherwise. I'm just find that some feminist shoe horn every issue into a Man Thing.

[MTSgroupie]

Prom - I am not telling anyone to shut up.

The OP asked why, when she post feminist stuff on her FB page her non-feminist friends blank her out. I am trying to explain why I would blank out such postings.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I find it boring when people are too ignorant to realize misogyny exists and is a huge problem. Ah well, each to their own.

[MTSgroupie]

Prom - I followed the link in the OP and it took me to a loggon screen. But let me guess. A bunch of guys are making derogatory comments about women? Close?

If yes, what has that got to do with my comments? I am not saying that we live in a twat free zone.

[MTSgroupie]

I am ignorant because I don't see what you see? And the mystery of why you get blanked by other deepens.

[namechangeguy]

The OP asked;

^How do we break down this wall of silence?
Why do people not want to be associated with 'ranty feminists'?
Our communication seems to be very isolating, even though it's not meant to be.^

I offered a few thoughts, after having asked if they would be welcome.

I will continue to read with interest. Genuine thanks to those who gave a considered reply.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I didn't say you were ignorant for that reason, MTS, and no, I don't wonder why I get blanked - I do wonder why you're still talking since it's all so 'boring' for you.