sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

Laz

Are you literally actually MAD?

You can't possibly possibly say that women are anything like men when it comes to touching and harassment.

No matter how much you want to say the behaviour and world you are used to, men approaching women at will, is desirable, natural and just dandy, you still can't possibly say that.

I don't think, though, that there are more unpleasant men than women.

What, about from those doing all the violence and killing against women you mean?

Running,

Just because I do not agree with every one of your trite truisms does not make me a misogynist. Quite the opposite.

I have encouraged and helped women to support harrassment throughout my career in the City. I had women working for me for years on end (when they had many other options) and was regarded as a fair, unsexist and popular boss, which is probably why my career ended when it did. I was unwilling to embrace crappy management double standards in many areas.

support? I meant report and no, not a Freudian slip :).

Promqueen,

Larry, or, if you like, Laurence. Please none of that Lazzer stuff.

Yes, if you want an honest answer, I do tend to present counter arguments, probably because I see them and also I do think that people can be very simplistic about things which are quite complex. But, in conversations where men are assuming very sexist things (some of which I have learned from these boards) I do challenge them with the counter argument too.

Promqueen,

What I write, I believe. I can see that others have had different experiences and I cannot speak to them. But, I also cannot ignore the experiences of my female friends and my own family.

Where is the truth? None of us really know, do we? It is probably somewhere in the middle.

Larry - you are right. Disagreeing with me does not make you a misogynist.

It is your comments on this thread which are so dismissive of women's experiences which do make you sound like a misogynist.

I have encouraged and helped women to support harrassment throughout my career in the City. I had women working for me for years on end (when they had many other options) and was regarded as a fair, unsexist and popular boss, which is probably why my career ended when it did. I was unwilling to embrace crappy management double standards in many areas.

Larry - all I can say is either you're making that up, or, in real life, you must be completely different to how how you come across on here.

I don't agree that workplace touch is fine and inevitable, particularly in England which is not a tactile culture. A handshake is fine, a man's arm around a female colleagues back is not fine.

If were talking about a man and woman at a dinner party and who were not work colleagues I still don't think he should touch her knee if they aren't already going out. I think he should invite her out and then if they get on etc make his move.

There is a very big gulf between men and women on these issues, even those of us who tend to take the middle ground and work to stop discrimination in both directions. Men seem to think on the whole there is no big issue over this stuff. Women think there is and that is mostly explained because women have had to endure this kind of thing. I am hardly a likely victim but I have had a good few instances of it over the years. Also a lot of men do it very subtlely so you cannot quite work out if they are doing what they are doing. There are past master of it out there - probably almost every large office has a male sex pest (and a few will have women doing it but it is not a gender neutral issue). The Jimmy Savilles , the lib dem recruiter man and all kinds of types in between.

It's much better now. Women are better at objecting and men know they need to restrain themselves

Also it was suggested office romances will always happen. Well they may but a large number of companies make the junior person leave. That still happens.

"I am afraid I don't, not in the society in which I mix in the UK. I don't see much disparity at all"

Ah the joy of privilege.

I don't see much racism in my life, but that is probably because I'm white.

The figures contradict your assertion that there is no disparity between men and women's power Larry.

You don't need to see it. Just like I don't need to see Australia to know it's there.

I was on a train a few years ago and sat in as completely empty carriage (train was at starting station). A large suited man got on and sat next to me. I asked him why he was sitting there, squashing himself against me, when the entire carriage was empty.

Oo, he said, the carriage will soon fill up (sic)

Well if you won't move I will, I said, and did, to a different carriage.

I fortunately am older, so could deal with it. I can just imagine a poor young embarrassed female in that situation. And hear him saying he'd done nothing wrong, just sat on a seat on a train.

This happened to my friend at uni, sitting with friends in the union bar.

Him: "I bet you 50p I can make your tits move without touching you"

Her: "What?"

Him: Grabs her boobs and hands her 50p.

Raucous laughter from the other men. The women were a bit more but none of us said anything, and this man had basically assaulted her. No doubt, had we said anything, we would have been jeered at and told it was only a joke. We were young, but we already we knew the score - men will make all manner of advances to you, i all manner of situations - you just have to deal with it, as part of life.

He's a doctor now.

But then we are talking about a man who thinks it's fine for a child to call a black person "chocolate face" becasue chocolate is nice so it's not an insult.

And also thinks it's fine to hit kids, sorry "smack" them

nuff said really.

Here's one for Laz from the Everyday Sexism Project:

Robyn via Twitter 2013-03-07 20:28
It was in chip shop! I got my arse groped, turned round &told him 2 fuck off. Female owner told me 2 get out

What would you say to her Larry?

Larry, why aren't you all over the eg. P+C parking, style and beauty, MIL, child-free wedding etc threads, presenting your "counter" arguments in a devil's advocate kinda way ?

Oh don't go giving him ideas now.

AF - because he's here to help us poor misguided Laydeeze

it's not working

The "truth" lies in between?

Or maybe, in all the millions of women in this country, some have had different experiences to others?