Why ban page 3?

[jackburton]

Hi, this is my first post, please be gentle :) . I'm looking for some thoughtful discussion on page 3 and the objectification of women, my wife suggested posting here. Any recommendations for good articles or feedback would be great.

My main issue with a lot of the traditional discussion on this issue is that there seems to be an implicit assumption of passivity and conformity in women that I can't really relate to as a man (or feel is present in many of the women in my life). I don't particularly worry about my son seeing body building or gay lifestyle magazines or other fetishised representations of men because I see them as part of a range of different types of lifestyle that he could adopt. I would think it quite alien that the occasional image of men in this way would significantly affect me (or him). In contrast, advertising and lifestyle magazines aimed at women seem to impose a very disturbing level of conformity and one that I feel would not be acceptable to most men. Frankly a lot of female targeted products seem to objectify (in the sense of judging purely by appearance) and be misogynist (in the sense of appearing to gain pleasure from and dwelling on the humiliation of women, particularly if their superficial appearance is non-conformist). In contrast most pornographic products aimed at men include a great diversity of female personality types, some are passive but many are not, Jordan being a classic example. They aren't treated as objects in the sense that their desire is critical to their appeal, sex dolls are relatively undesirable. While there is certainly some pornography and lifestyle discussions that appear to encourage pleasure in the suffering of women I feel this is in the minority with most magazines presenting their female models as stars who are the centre of attention and whose happiness and desire is an important part of their appeal.

My initial feelings about the campaign against page 3 is that these images are being judged assuming they were present in the kind of magazine targeted at women i.e. they are a conforming image and that they would lead to humiliation of those that didn't conform. I think the majority of male culture is not oppressive in that way. Personally I find mainstream female culture to be much more of a problem for women's liberation than these products. What am I missing?

@Flora

"Oh and have a for the ickiest post yet."

Don't blow an ovary now!

Yawn...standard feminist sexual shaming response...can't you come up with something a little more original?

Your arguments are built on straw. There will always be pictures of naked women. As to the future, men are beginning to opt out of marriage now, deciding that there is no benefit for them. As to high status and low status males..you are in denial...Are you married, if so did you marry a loser? I doubt it. You would have gone for the highest status male you could get.

@Less

I would argue that there are plenty of female orientated sexual publications. As a counter I would add that men are objectified as to their earning potential and ability to get resources. A winner or a loser, so to speak.

Some of the women I have known have loved being objectified by men for their beauty, as long as it is the right man, and not a loser, of course.

"Are you married, if so did you marry a loser? I doubt it. You would have gone for the highest status male you could get. "

Oh you're one of those cynics. Life isn't as strategic as you think it is. You sound highly disappointed in life, and you don't really know us.

bum oh the irony.

"As a counter I would add that men are objectified as to their earning potential and ability to get resources."

Gosh you're so cynical! I would hate to see life as you do.

FWIW feminists are the last people to objectify men for their earning potential. You won't see any "there aint nothing going on but the rent" philosophy here. Because feminists believe in the right to earn their own money, to have access their own resources, so that when they find a man attractive it's for reasons other than ther wallet.

@PlentyofPube

"It contributes to a hostile environment for women who, in todays world want a bit more than to be treated as something to ogle, TYVM."

I would argue that your average woman in today's postmodern feministic western developed world is the most pampered they have ever been since the dawn of time.

"pampered"?!! Barf....

If you had said that we have a higher standard of living than we used to then yes of course we do. But so do men. Would you say that men are also pampered?

As for rights, opportunities and privileges, of course we have more than we used to, but relative to men we are still lacking in many areas.

@Less

Not cynical...a realist. My argument is if a man wants to read page three to lighten his life we don't have the right to stop it.

@Less

but relative to men we are still lacking in many areas.

Apart from divorce law...of course. This has resulted in many men opting out of marriage.

"This has resulted in many men opting out of marriage."

Do you have any evidence of this?

"My argument is if a man wants to read page three to lighten his life we don't have the right to stop it."

Why not? We make all sorts of laws to create the sort of society we want to live in. What's so special about a man's right to leer at half naked women in public?

Why don't we have topless girls on TV in the daytime then to lighten the poor men's load?

@Flora

Sure...Google marriage rates and then click on images. Most is American data.

It is a sad reality.

In Japan there is a whole breed of men who have just given up on women. They call themselves Herbivores. Sad...for them the benchmark is way too high.

Now I know that wikipedia is not the greatest of academic tools but you can read a brief on this bunch here..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

I quote: Many of these causes, however, may be enhanced by Japanese women and male perceptions of them. Many women refuse men that don't have steady jobs (such as the freeters and the NEET).[17] Other women feel that self-proclaimed soushokukei danshi are weak and not masculine.[18] Additionally, some men have considered themselves intimidated by more independent women, while others show little to no interest in the opposite sex.[5][19] However, a poll of 16-19 year old women found that 59% were uninterested in sex, considerably higher than the male poll.[3]

Sad...:-(

@Ashes

They do in Spain. :-)

@Flora

What's so special about a man's right to leer at half naked women in public?

There isn't, there are a damn site more important things to get wound up about than men looking at tits!

Why not? We make all sorts of laws to create the sort of society we want to live in. What's so special about a man's right to leer at half naked women in public?

this.

As for I would argue that your average woman in today's postmodern feministic western developed world is the most pampered they have ever been since the dawn of time. - I don't know whether to laugh or be sick.

Why do you keep putting @ at the start of your posts? Are you from Twitter?

Hmm, well they don't have a page 3 in many other countries. So should we copy other nations?

bum you said "this has resulted..." Falling marriage rates are not evidence that the fall is caused by men giving up on marriage. Do you understand that?

If Japanese men are rebelling about traditional sex roles, good for them. Shame they're not doing something more productive than watching porn and playing video games all day. Not seeing that phenomenon in the UK though.

You do know that marriage is between a man and a woman typically, right? So if marriage rates are down, that's women's choices as well as men's?

"My argument is if a man wants to read page three to lighten his life we don't have the right to stop it."

What was the name of that Greek dude who used to masturbate in the local agora & other public places? Maybe we should bring that back too? Supermarkets could hand out free wetwipes in case they got a bit randy in the fruit and veg aisle!

bum thanks for telling me what to find important. Thanks also for agreeing there's nothing special about men's rights to leer at women in public. Hang on, what was your argument again?

Flora, my understanding is that typically Japanese women were expected to stop working on marriage and/or to do the bulk of the housework.

Maybe both men and women are rebelling against typical gender roles.

Doctrine I think you're right. In fact, that wiki article pointed out there are even higher levels of disinterest in sex among young women. From what bum has been saying, you would imagine they would be clamouring all over the "high status males".

I know it's anedata but a Japanese woman told me a few years ago that most of her friends were only having one child because pain medication during childbirth is frowned on and women don't want to put themselves through the pain after they have experienced it the first time. How is that relevant? Well it may not be but it is difficult to extrapolate cause from bare statistics (e.g. falling rates of marriage, childbirth) and particularly so using statistics from one culture to make a point about another culture. The same woman told me that her pre-marriage courses included flower arranging. I think I'd bail out of marriage in that case as well.

@less

"What was the name of that Greek dude who used to masturbate in the local agora & other public places? Maybe we should bring that back too? Supermarkets could hand out free wetwipes in case they got a bit randy in the fruit and veg aisle!"

An argument built on straw...when did I suggest that? Your comment is invalid. nil points