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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

a question for the men here

999 replies

Mitchy1nge · 29/01/2013 01:01

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 01/02/2013 22:49

Certainly women are the worlds poor and this means millions of children also live in poverty. But if women are two thirds of the world workers and two thirds of the worlds poor, the problem is capitalism. Capitalism has created "feminised poverty".

I disagree Mini.

Capitalism is patriarchal. The feminization of poverty is a patriarchal model, capitalism is the current vehicle for that, and it is an important power structure, but I don't think it is the root of why it is better to be a poor man than a poor woman. Nor does capitalism in and of itself explain why women are much much poorer than men. Women are poorer because they bear more of the responsibility of child rearing - and that is patriarchal.

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 08:26

LG, are you sure you are not seeing rude, blinkered posts from certain posters in certain contexts (maybe Relationships where obviously fraught relations between men and women tend to dominate the thread count) and assuming they must be feminists?

Anecdotal, but I was once on a thread discussing something like cutting funding to the BBC or American healthcare a political issue sort of thread anyway and someone called me an unreconstructed Marxist, mainly it seemed to me on the basis that that poster didn't see himself as a Marxist (of any ilk) and assumed that anyone disagreeing with him must be something he clearly didn't have time for.

I thought it was one of the funniest things anyone has ever said to me personally on MN btw.

Daddelion · 02/02/2013 08:31

Well, I suppose the thread worked.

DadDancing got banned.

Hully is coming back (I believe)

If I express an opinion is isn't to degenerate anyone else's opinion, it's just my opinion, am I the only one who thinks boys can get a rough deal?
I get the impression, not just from here, but reading generally, that men have this great life, and I don't think it's true.

I have worked for mental health groups, and I've worked with teenagers and they really don't seem any better off. The teenage boys going through the pressure of gangs, alcohol and drugs is pretty depressing.

Off to microwave my porridge, can anyone tell me how to do it?

sunshineandfreedom · 02/02/2013 08:38

Daddelion, in the nicest possible way, you've just demonstrated how utterly you just don't get it. The answer to your question "Am I the only one who thinks boys can get a rough deal?" has been answered on here, and it has been explained countless times why yes, boys can get a rough deal, but that it's not comparable to the rough deal suffered by web on a daily basis because one is so much worse than the other.

A woman's "rough deal" impacts her entire life, and means that she is constantly oppressed, earns less, is expected to do the child are, is belittled and dismissed on a daily basis - I could go on, but you get the picture.

A man or boy's "rough deal" is simply not comparable to that because in the patriarchy we live in it will never impact his life like that. Can you really not see what we are saying?

AbigailAdams · 02/02/2013 08:40

An "unreconstructed marxist". Grin That is one of those phrases that just means "you don't agree with me" isn't it? Meant to shut you up.

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 08:43

'Rude' and 'blinkered' being somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

Beachcomber · 02/02/2013 08:49

Daddelion, I would appreciate it if you could respond to my response to you - I looked up links and even provided quotes from them. An acknowledgement/response would be nice.

To say that girls and women are oppressed in male supremacy society does not = all men and boys have perfect worry free difficulty free lives.

The thing about politics is that it examines classes power structures socialization hierarchies social-economic patterns history etc. If you ignore all these things your political analysis is flawed.

Patriarchy does damage to boys and men too. So why don't they end it then? (That is not a rhetorical question.)

Daddelion · 02/02/2013 08:51

It's not I don't get it, I just don't agree with you.

I believe that society is tipping towards making boys the bottom rung of the ladder, particularly white, working class boys.

And if this isn't recognized there's going to be a lot of problems for them in the future.

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 08:52

How about the dentist going through the pressure of a miscarriage in a hospital in A First World Country Formerly Known As The Celtic Tiger who ended up dying because a doctor wouldn't do a D&C on a doomed foetus even though her cervix was dilated and her amniotic fluid almost all gone. Nor and this is completely inexplicable would he give her the antibiotics that might have prevented the infection that killed her.

On the face of it, this was a privileged woman, entitled to use 'Dr' before her name.

Sometimes you run right smack into it and if you are a woman in Ireland you say 'there but for the grace of god go I'.

sunshineandfreedom · 02/02/2013 08:53

...like the problems for women now?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 02/02/2013 08:54

If society is tipping that way, D, where is it now?

BeerTricksPotter · 02/02/2013 08:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Daddelion · 02/02/2013 09:00

Beachcomber.

Sorry, I missed it.

I'll have a look later, I run a youth group on Friday evenings so didn't read all the rest of the thread.

And i do one Saturday mornings as well and I'm off out to do that one.
I'm at the coal face, but I get tea and toast so I don't need a microwave.

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 09:02

Society isn't making them the bottom rung of the ladder. They are doing that to themselves. There is one particular white, working class society, in Belfast, NI, where one set of white working class boys is failing dramatically in school while another is succeeding to a degree that is difficult to understand.

White working class protestants who used to be the lords of all they surveyed in their little kingdom have suffered some sort of psychic blow from the collapse of the industries that sustained their community's belief in its own superiority and historically denied the working class Catholics a look in, consigning them to a world where they had two options if they wanted to keep themselves alive work as common labourers for a pittance for private employers (public employment was denied them institutionalised discrimination at work) or work really hard in hard-scrabble Catholic schools and try to get out via college.

One previously privileged class that has fallen on hard times and is faced with a new and completely unfamiliar world has yet to adapt and understand the value of education. The previously unprivileged class that adapted because survival depended on it continues to thrive and to outstrip the other group in educational terms.

It seems to me that maybe there has been some sort of psychic blow somewhere along the line for the white working classes away from NI, and boys have not adapted.

Daddelion · 02/02/2013 09:04

I don't show horn it into every conversation I have.

I just think in certain situations it's worth discussing.

I won't talk about it all this morning, as the people I'm with wouldn't know anything about it, wouldn't be interested and probably wouldn't see it as relevant to their lives, even though it's their boys it's relevant to.
So it will be engaged with more subtley.

Anyway must dash.

Daddelion · 02/02/2013 09:07

'Society isn't making them the bottom rung of the ladder. They are doing that to themselves'

Do you really believe that?
Change working class boys and put any other sex, class or race in there.

Interesting opinion I'll think about it.

Now really must dash.

Beachcomber · 02/02/2013 09:15

And there is so much to be said about teen culture.

I don't think you are listening though so it would probably be a waste of time - perhaps one of the other men on the thread would like to take a bash at it?

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 09:18

LG, what calibre of individual would you consider yourself if you didn't take the time to state your views on Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem even though your chances of being listened to by people bent on expanding settlement there are non-existent?

Daddelion, same question, but insert plight of teenage boys and change wording as necessary.

FastidiaBlueberry · 02/02/2013 09:50

"am I the only one who thinks boys can get a rough deal?"

No of course you aren't. Of course boys can get a rough deal, but they don't get a rough deal purely because they are boys. They get a rough deal because of their class, or their parent's lack of parenting skills, or their colour, or their social circumstances etc. etc. - all the things girls get a rough deal about in addition to the rough deal they get for being a girl.

Although thinking about it, you could argue that the one thing that really oppresses boys because they are boys, is the policing of masculinity and the pressure to fit into the brutal masculinity that men have invented to big themselves up versus women. Masculinity is the opposite of femininity in this model and so anything remotely associated with the feminine - kindness, empathy, fear, sadness - all are banished and if little boys express them, they are chivvied out of it or bullied out of it. That is not women's fault: that is men's fault - they're the ones who set up the patriarchy which decreed that women are lesser beings and that men are greater beings and that men and women have to act in pre-determined ways - tough shit if their little boys don't fit the model, we'll all brutalise boys to fit in that box come what may. Deal with the construction of masculinity and you deal with a whole mass of emotional and psychological problems for boys and men.

"I get the impression, not just from here, but reading generally, that men have this great life, and I don't think it's true." Then tbh Daddelion, I suspect that you're not really understanding what you read. The discussion really is going over your head and I'm sorry for that. All I can suggest is that you do a lot more basic reading first.

I don't disagree that working class white boys are actually approaching a crisis in terms of their place in society, just as has happened in Mathaanxiety's example in NI and that it will cause them a lot of problems in the future: but it will cause white working class women and black working-class people more problems, because what men do when they're angry and dispossessed, is take their anger and despair out on even more dispossessed groups than themselves: women, children, BME groups, muslims etc. White working class men have historically been higher up the food chain than these other groups and the crisis in their identity, is being caused by the loss of that privilege of being higher up. That doesn't mean that them being higher up, was the fine and dandy thing to be, it was bloody unfair that they got special treatment because of their sex and their colour and now they don't.

The problem is when groups of people who have an unfair advantage lose their unfair advantage, they feel it as an attack on their basic human rights to have that unfair advantage. All would be well if only women would stop demanding to be treated as equal human beings and black people weren't demanding to be treated as if they have the same right to be treated as full citizens as white men. Well guess what, re-instating an unfair advantage, is not the solution to the problem of white working class masculinity. Re-constructing masculinity and race is, but that would take acknowledgement of the fact that you've had an unfair advantage and a willingness to give it up. That ain't gonna happen soon because let's face it, no-one wants to voluntarily give up their unfair advantage, do they?

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 09:51

'Working class boys' if any such group ever existed as a homogenous entity used to have a lot to look forward to if they were willing to put the effort into their labour.

Especially in East Belfast. Job for life in Harland and Wolff. Feeling of superiority over the RCs.

Now that the way to get ahead has changed, they have been slow to adapt. It wasn't always this way for them - life used to be relatively good in East Belfast. The crucial difference between white working class boys in E Belfast and the other groups who were/are disadvantaged because of historical political or legal decisions (RCs denied opportunities in NI, women denied opportunities everywhere, RCs and women both treated as second class citizens) is institutionalised, systematic discrimination. The sort that declared that one group belonged as chattels to their spouses or denied the right to vote or made it legal to pay far less than a man would be paid for the same labour (in linen mills for instance, to use another NI example).

NI is a perfect example of massive division in what might from the outside be mistaken for 'working class society', of institutionalised discrimination, of one group deliberately oppressing another, or one group for various reasons that it alone is responsible for clinging to something that has long outlived its utility (an outmoded notion of what constitutes 'a man').

Groups who could never get ahead when the dice were stacked against them are now outstripping the formerly privileged. They do not have the cultural ties to the old ways, never held the same expectations, and have no social/emotional investment in disdaining school as traditional working class culture in one particular working class community did in the NI example, but not the other.

mathanxiety · 02/02/2013 10:00

'Anything remotely associated with the feminine' in East Belfast this includes reading, writing and arithmetic. This is the sort of shooting themselves in the foot I spoke of the policing of masculinity as something that is the opposite of what is now a successful model is bound to be self defeating.

This is where the world of gangs comes from -- a really poor definition and image of masculinity, held and promoted by teen boys themselves. And the victims are ultimately the teen boys.

What is needed is for men to stand up and suggest a different model of masculinity. Given a certain diffidence on the part when it comes to speaking out it is unlikely that will happen.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 02/02/2013 10:08

Great post FB.

Sausageeggbacon · 02/02/2013 10:28

Well my two boys are having a good education and hopefully will have good lives but I have exploded at one teacher who is preaching to them that they are potential rapists. This teach young men not to rape angle is so messed up and it is harming the development of young men. My boys know what rape is and they know it is wrong. Murderers know murder is wrong (ok sure there are some mental issues but in general) doesn't stop them murdering people. I believe I have brought my boys up to be well rounded and they respect me and DD.

So to have a teacher ram statements down the throat of my boys is annoying. I worry about them enough with the way society is changing, I think young men are going to face greater challenges than previous generations. I have read the thread but in the real world I have more concerns over my boys than I expected. I am starting to think the route a lot of men are now taking in Sweden makes sense (marrying younger third world brides).

Oh and as a note we all know permabans are only until they sign in with a new name from a new e-mail address.

FastidiaBlueberry · 02/02/2013 10:30

In what way are your boys being damaged by being told that they shouldn't rape girls sausageegg?

And do you think that being told not to rape, damages boys as much as being raped or sexually assaulted damages a quarter of all women?

FastidiaBlueberry · 02/02/2013 10:31

It is actually incredible that some people are so man-hating, that they believe that it damages young men to be told that they are responsible for their own behaviour.

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