a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

"Why you decent blokes haven't told DadDancer to fuck right off, I really don't understand." Because the thread has gone a bit negative and I don't really want to get involved in anything shouty.

"Is it fair to say that there are some men that come on FWR to talk not about feminism but about themselves as men." I think it's because there's one area that a man can talk about with being accused of 'mansplaining', it's the experience of being male. I think it's also because they want to make the point that they are not talking for women, but just expressing a man's point of view.

I think the whole cookie thing is one of the reasons that lots of feminists prefer to hold discussions without having men around.

Women are socialized to give cookies to men.

Men are socialized to expect cookies. (And to perceive withholding of cookies as Out Of Order.)

Also women are socialized to care about pretty much everybody apart from themselves. And men are socialized to put themselves first, to put themselves forward and to think of themselves as superior and to think that all this is the most normal thing in the status quo world.

Feminist discussions that happen without men around, or with men who try to not act dudely and privileged (very rare) are very different to the ones that take place when the menfolks make their presence known.

I'll indicate why possibly sometimes men don't 'challenge' other men here if we think what they post is shite, and yes I am looking at you DadDancer for instance?

• the women posters are already doing it nicely.
• it's often as ineffectual as women posters doing it, eg for me somebody called 'Bob' and his mate a while back. I'd said somethings v specific, and reported the stuff, and it went nowhere. Trolls are impervious to evidence-based criticism.
• for me (at least) it can be seen as 'disempowering' overall, by some women i.e. don't fight our battles for us?

Also, in RL this sort of stuff happens fairly regularly, sometimes very sneakily. I don't let it go, ever. But those actions and interventions on a personal level (anecdote-driven) rarely transmit well on screen.

I'd be very interested in how many of the male posters ont his thread actually agree with Daddancer?

Brilliant post again by Beachcomber, I'm feeling very in eloquent tonight and you're summing it up beautifully.

And I agree with AF and others - the most useful and honest thing men can do is call out other men on their misogyny and male privilege weight throwing around.

I don't often hold my breath on that one though.

Sabrina - I am pretty sure DD is in a minority of one. fwiw.

Yunno Pan - if a man says something (about misogyny) other men hear it. If a women says something many of them see it as a boring interruption to their 'splainin.

Men have power and they have powerful voices - shame they don't use that more. There isn't any excuse for it.

I'm not sure what'd be so difficult about a simple 'I agree that this post is unpleasant' or 'I also disagree with this', pan?

It is a tactic a mate of mine who is male but very good (IMO) at feminism often uses. It is respectful and doesn't imply that he thinks women need him to fight their battles.

Yes I know that Beach. But the question was 'why don't men posters challenge on here'. And I've said why, I think for me I don't always.
In RL it's quite different, absolutely. The best and usual question from me, and the men friends I have when given some misogyny is "Why do you say/think that?" The stumbled response is often. "Ye know, that's what women are like." And then off we go. Just being all pointy-fingered and smug in your own values doesn't help. You have to find a starting point.

If that's so pan, I would love a few more of them to say it.

It might dent his teflon a bit if a few men disagreed with him, or just told him his posts were out of order.

Sabrina - I doubt/know it would make any difference whatsoever. Some people's culture and beliefs are ingrained - the interpretation would v probably 'why should I be dislocated from my comfortableness by some pussy-whipped liberal?'

It's about group mentality though isn't it?

Men spout misogynistic shite and feel like petrol kings when they are doing it because they think they have the weight of other men behind them. They can swagger and act like privileged wankers and feel good about that as long as they have the implicit agreement/support of their group.

If the group distances themselves from the wanker and says 'oi mate stop being a wanker you are making us all look as bad as you', the wanker is halted in his tracks and exposed as a wanker.

If I, as a white person, stood by and let another white person spout racist shite in a forum for discussing civil rights, I would be acting a) privileged and b) oppressive c) like a wanker.

Pan, resisting patriarchy shouldn't mean you have to self-define (even in jest) as a pussy-whipped liberal.

Solidarity.

absolutely beach

men not speaking up are betraying shitbags

in order for evil to triumph...

still, dont wanna look pussuwhipped

dear lord

Beach - that presupposes a few things, mainly that peer pressure works. I'd think that unpleasant wanker male posters would simply wander off and find other peers who are supportive. Cynical? Prob. but that's how 'watching the film to the end' plays out, ime.

Sabrina - I am pretty sure DD is in a minority of one. fwiw.

Then just say it, Pan. I won't view it as you "fighting our battles for us". I let men open doors for me, btw

LR - I certainly don't self-define in that way.. It's just the cognition that operates for some people. I think.

I am Trying Very Hard to ignore the use of pussy-whipped. (That's a cookie)

It is A Result!! if the wanker wanders off.

Pan if someone said you agreed with would you respond as though you agreed with them? I think as a human you have a right to say when something offends you, if you are on a feminist site maybe telling the women they are wrong is not the place to start...but telling the other men when they have got it wrong seems like a decent place to start. Personally I would appreciate it.

Or even maybe just to say "you don't speak for me", when another male on the page feels the need to say all men do this or that and all women should accept this as a fact.

ok Hully. Never been called a coward before. Thanks for that. .Reported.

Pan, give over, silly

At least you are still talking

Where did all the uvver blokes go ?....