a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

Well having read the thread it went the way I thought it would.

Mitchy - the short answer to your original question is that I post here because I am interested, because I can and because I want to. I have been on MN long enough to know some women dont want men here or indeed on MN at all. Unfortunately for them, no one appointed them as Feminism section police so they will have to live with me making an occassional post.

The longer answer relates to the comment rosabud made earlier " it's a shame we don't see more men posting about other topics which the wider subject of feminism touches on such as parenting/equal pay/ family breakdown/ representation of women in the media etc etc."

I dont know where she has been looking but I have posted on all of those topics this week. I really don't care which section heading a thread is under.

The thing is though, nearly every subject could be looked at from a feminist perspective, or from a wider society perspective or even just a different perspective. Just because an MN post defines it as a feminist issue doesn't mean it is only a feminist issue. If it of interest and I have time and I think I can post something reasonably interesting then I will.

Feminism is just a column header in the MN Talk database when all is said and done. To me, what matters is not that thing called 'Feminism' but that thing called 'Society' and making it better for everyone and most especially our children. Women/girls are at least 50% of that society and suffer unfair treatment in nearly every aspect of their life. A very important part of making society better is obviously removing the unfairness women face. Men have to be involved in that process (self evident truth) and we (men) have to be able to discuss the issues if we are ever going to make it happen.

I don't post in Feminism that often and I read many threads and make no comment at all - which is my version of 'shutting up and listening'. I will keep posting though and I am not going to 'shut up' if I disagree or have something in my 49 years of life experience that is relevant to say.

Sabrina

If your post is aimed at me.

I asked a question.

RM76's second answer cleared the waters some what as have mechanicalTheatre's but I find that the waters are still fairly muddy.

I will second this from MoreBeta
"I don't post in Feminism that often and I read many threads and make no comment at all - which is my version of 'shutting up and listening'. I will keep posting though and I am not going to 'shut up' if I disagree or have something in my 49 years of life experience that is relevant to say."

Also just because its a male voice does not mean that it is my opinion that you are hearing.

I certainly think men should post on feminist sites.
Knee-jerk reactions from men who hate to be criticised are what give men a bad name. My husband realises that when I complain about these men, I do not mean him, that's because he really isn't sexist. Why are some men so defensive? Probably back to that cognitive dissonance thing.
Anyway, got that PZ Myers link scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/02/16/feminist-hypersensitivity-or-m/
Hope I'm not boring anyone.

Yes, MoreBeta as sure as as eggs is eggs, these threads follow a well-trodden path.
And yes also to the reading but not posting as a form of 'shutting up'. I do that v regularly - the trouble with 'shutting up' on the interweb is that no-one knows you are doing it.

Is it fair to say that there are some men that come on FWR to talk not about feminism but about themselves as men.

Pan - maybe MN men could have a special 'Like Button' which puts a little male stick figure (eg such as those seen on a toilet door) next to any post we read but didn't respond to.

Seriously. Good idea! To say 'I'm reading and absorbing this, but have a big rolled up sock in my mouth'.

I have very rarely read any actual feminist analysis from men on here - I'm not sure if ever have actually. I'm not saying that no men do feminist analysis but they certainly seem to be rare (Jensen and Bancroft being notable examples that have already been cited on this thread).

I agree with chibi (hi!) that we get to hear the male narrative constantly in patriarchy so it is very very unusual for anything said from a male perspective to be a big useful surprise to feminists.

If men insist in being welcomed into feminist discussions as a condition of them joining the struggle for women's liberation, that makes me think that they aren't going to be terribly helpful to the revolution.

It isn't women's work to give space to men, listen to men, defer to men and help men find their humanity and stop with the oppressing already. And it is a waste of energy and will get us strictly nowhere.

Thanks to Tortoise (hi!) for her really thought provoking post about how even when one means well, that isn't enough

And why the fuck are we talking about porn? Is it because someone said the word 'boobz' ?

It would Sabrina .

We all KNOW xyz happens to men too. WE KNOW. Because we are told it every time we debate stuff that happens to women.

EVERY TIME.

MB, Pan.

Let me add to what you have said about "reading but not saying anything" as being a positive thing. I agree, btw. But it works both ways.

I can only speak for myself here, but I often read posts by men and think "good point" but don't directly comment on it. I don't because I expect decent discourse from men, and I don't feel the need to do the seal-clapping thing every a bloke says something that I agree with.

It's a respect thing, actually (from where I am standing). Some men expect cookies every time they say something vaguely decent/funny/pertinent. Men without an inflated ego/sense of male privilege simply join a conversation without the expectation that women will fawn all over them. This is how it should be.

Then there are less adequate men who bang on about themselves all the time, and the awful time they have of it on a female dominated parenting site. That is rather tiresome.

Yes, Linerunner, that would be a fair statement. For example, I know more about Daddancer's taste in porn and lapdancing clubs than I would care to.

NicholasTeakozy was mentioned in a positive way upthread - a male poster who is clearly posting without any menz agenda- I would like to echo those sentiments.

every time

Is it fair to say that there are some men that come on FWR to talk not about feminism but about themselves as men.

I think that is a fair and incisive summary of a lot of male contributions to this section.

AF - and let me add to your addition.. I had no idea what 'thanks, here's a cookie' meant until I posted round here. Once it was explained to me I was pretty which reflects your note about 'it's normal to be reasonable. Why would I expect seal-clapping or cookies, the latter which is given to children'?

Since I have opened my trap, I'll share with you all what I would like to see more of from male posters

Blokes telling other blokes to STFU on here

Why you decent blokes haven't told DadDancer to fuck right off, I really don't understand. If it's because you approve of his contributions, then I have misjudged some of you. If it's because you don't want to be seen as turning against one of your own and reckon it might weaken the relatively small male voice on here, then you are making a mistake.

Just my thoughts.

Is it fair to say that there are some men that come on FWR to talk not about feminism but about themselves as men.

So true.

It's generally annoying when people use anecdata, but it's particularly annoying when that anecdata is from the 'dominant voice' and it's used to suggest we should all be seeing the world through the eyes of men who feel their individual views are the most important thing to discuss.

(Very mixed eye/voice there, but I hope you get my point.)

And well said, AF.

Dismissing an opinion on the basis of one's sex or gender is sexist. Men can be feminists, too, so I don't see why they shouldn't post here.

We can't see the person who's typing those words we see on our screens, and usernames are not neccessarily a giveaway either, I think it makes much more sense to just look at the words someone says rather than interpreting them on the basis of whether we think the poster is male or female.

Yy to what AF said about men challenging other men on their behaviour.

Excellent post, Beachcomber

And I agree with AF. And it's infuriating when whenever someone points out issues that happen often with men on here in this thread, the male posters all seem to go "Omg stop being so meeean, you're patronising me you mean feminists." Really frustrating.

Though obviously we can't and shouldn't assume that that's the reaction a man is hoping for until its become really clear - as Pan has said, it's not all of them.

WW I'm pretty sure most of us DO look at the words and it's what those words are that is getting the reaction on here - the difference between named male posters that are happily read and engaged with and those which aren't is nothing but the words they post.

X-posted with AF's last post, also totally agree on that.

You see it rarely, don't you Norma ? Blokes telling other blokes to STFU.

it's always left the "strident" female voices on here to tell the likes of DadDancer his contribution is unwelcome, and unhealthy.

Why is that ? Honestly, although my approval is probably worth jackshit to many, I think it would generally foster more of a feeling of at least some things being a common enemy to communication between the sexes

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