a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

"there must be so many feminist and women only spaces which men are entirely unlikely to ever come across" - oh aye, fucking loads of them, you can't bloody move for women-only spaces.

Yes, and I just love the fact that, apparently, women really should restrict themselves to those unobtrusive woman-only spaces 'which men are entirely unlikely ever to come across'. Because we wouldn't want anyone to notice us talking to each other in the absence of a man, would we?

Naturally, as soon as a man deigns to notice a woman-only space, it's only right we should all decamp to the next one, kind of like playing hide and seek.

"if progress is to be made then we need men to listen ? how do we know they are if we are standing in different rooms? "

Sorry Mini it's taken so long to get back to you. I was tired last night. First of all I was responding to Susan's assertions that it was necessary to have discussions with men to gain equality. In a way I agree and in a way I don't.

If men changed their behaviour and attitudes because they acknowledged that we live in a patriarchy and that isn't a good thing for women (and some men) then few discussions would be necessary or required to effect change. However reality seems to be:

a) They don't believe women are oppressed or
b) They know women are oppressed but don't want to give up or acknowledge their privilege or
c) They disagree with women about how to go about it or
d) A combination of the above

So that is why arguments discussions take place with men. So I was really saying to Susan that no we don't have to have endless discussions with men if they accepted our reality and worked with us rather than against us. Women have had to fight and fight for every progress made and even now are having to fight just to keep those concessions e.g. abortion rights. Men aren't budging without a fight. They aren't wanting to change their attitudes and behaviour. They aren't wanting to give up their privilege.

I do think it is up to us (as the opressed) to say what is required to effect change, not men. The oppressors can't be dictating changes to the oppressed, otherwise what has changed in the dynamic? That is why I was saying listen and act. Instead of arguing that no 1 in 9 women aren't raped, or "it isn't all men" , start believing women's experiences and believing that male violence (for example) is a real issue and work with us to stop it. Start prosecuting these men, start debunking rape and DV myths, start spreading the message that no men aren't entitled to have sex with a drunk/sleeping woman, start looking at it through a woman's eyes, not a man's privileged eye. And obviously discussions would have take place to effect this. I wasn't thinking of handing men a piece of paper over a 10-ft wall and say do it!

But when women are discussing their experiences then I do think it is crass for a man to step in at that point to "discuss". For a start this discussion generally takes the form of a denial of women's experiences, it is very rarely offering sympathy and often they can't offer empathy as it doesn't happen to them in the same way. Women deserve these spaces to talk amongst themselves. Tortoiseonahalfshell has illustrated nicely how privilege can get in the way and alienate someone and that was with a group of people aware of their own privilege and not wanting to upset.

And that follows on to your comment about shared experiences and spheres which I have been thinking about all night. Despite the patriarchy not always being a good thing for men too, I don't think that men and women have many shared experiences of the patriarchy, no (I am reluctant to say never as perhaps there is something I haven't thought of). The reason for that is because women are oppressed because of our biology. But our spheres do cross in the sense that men can see the damage the patriarchy does to women (and vice versa) and can probably formulate better men's thinking behind their behaviour. So by the same token when men tell us why other men do things, we need to listen!

"How we got here is as much to do with what women have and haven't done as anything men have." However, I completely disagree with that statement. It is victim blaming. Women are not as much to blame for their own oppression. At all. Women do what they have to get by in a patriarchy and we may not agree with every woman's actions but changing women's behaviour is not going to change the patriarchy. You would never advise an abused woman to change their behaviour to stop the abuse from their partner, for example, because it wouldn't work. Only changing the abusers behaviour would work. You would advise her to get out of the relationship. Unfortunately we can't get out of the patriarchy other than by dismantling it i.e. by men changing their behaviour and attitudes.

Apologies for the essay and the fact that the thread has moved on and this is largely irrelevant! But I said I would respond to Mini and hence this dissertation reply.

Daddelion
"Why doesn't one of the men on here start a thread in Dadsnet on men and feminism?"

It turned into a massive bunfight and got shutdown.

It was most annoying as it was the most active dadsnet has ever been (IMHO).

Did it?

What were the sides?

Larrygrylls. I frequently look at women's issues websites. These are routinely carpet bombed by poorly educated men and MRA/PUA 'activists'. Taunts, death threats, rape threats, are quite literally every other comment.

To everybody-
I've only been on MN a couple of days, but it seems that the same things that were happening two years ago on American sites (elevator Gate) are now happening in the UK.

Women (and some nice men, like my Husband) try to get together and chat about things relating to feminism, a bunch of men (and yes women, they call them 'Chill Girls' in America) (let's call these people 'Bob') decide that it is a personal slight against them and that they must sort these awful women out.

It goes something like this,
Bob feels that 'cognitive dissonance' kick in,
'I'm not sexist, why are they all claiming that what I did last Friday was sexist?
Bob then chases these women down and gives them a good telling off,
'I'm going to put them in their place, none of it's true anyway, most women love me'
when women are rightly outraged, they tell Bob that to tell women how to feel on issues that affect them IS misogyny, but again Bob's 'cognitive dissonance' kicks in,
'I can't be the bad guy, I'm not sexist, some of my best friends are women, it's just those lying feminists, they are SOOO militant, there isn't even any need for it, they've got equality'.
oh, and my favourite
'women have it worse in other countries so what are you complaining about?' (We can thank Richard Dawkins for the propagation of that crap!)

The big problem is if Bob lets the cognitive dissonance rule in the first place, he's never likely to stop and LISTEN to the point women are trying to make.

My husband,for example, would never be such a lazy thinker as to ever suffer cognitive dissonance, so is obviously going to listen first, he is not egotistical or arrogant. unfortunately the same can't be said for the way we condition men to think in society.
PZ Myers has some excellent thoughts on how men should just listen more, sorry can't seem to get a link to work, just google him with 'listen to women' and you'll find him, must ask hubby to see if he can see a good link.

As it stands, I think the UK is rapidly joining America with the rise of MRA's.
Men like DD etc, who feel that they are being demonised on fairly moderate feminist sites will soon start seeing the good in these men's groups and hey presto we have another wave of MRA's.

Christ it's depressing. Anyway, sorry for monopolising/lecturing, found this subject interesting, hope it makes sense.

Hully

I don't honestly know.

I left the thread mid evening and the next morning it had been removed.

Question

Is someone who campaigns for more shelters for men who are victims of DV/DA an MRA?

AbigailAdams, great post. (sorry, I'm new, all the little pictures are still a novelty to my tiny woman brain!)

I'm a bit unsure about what constitutes an MRA as well.

I push (and have worked for) increased awareness with male mental health problems. Does that make me an MRA?

I would say a MRA is someone who campaigns for men's rights at the expense of women's. So for me, no neither of these are really MRAs and in particular I think that mental health problems do need to be talked about more in regards to men.

Basically, I don't know how anyone can be so blind as to think that men need more rights. It blows my mine.

my mind, obv.

BoneyBackJefferson, only if they think women who are abused deserved a good bitch slap!
What a weird question, of course not!

Questions like that are old, they serve to paint feminists as women who want to rule over men, men used to use it to discredit feminism.
'Don't give them equality, they'll make us all live in the sewers'

Mechanical

Campagining for shelters for male victims of DV/DA would take money away from shelters for female victims of DV/DA so it would (sort of) be at the expense of women.

As would collecting money for the RSPCA.

RM76

it is a genuine question.

I am honestly quite confused about what a MRA is.

I am not trying to discredit feminists or paint them any colour.
I am hoping that this thread will allow questions and that posters will answer them.

I campaign for more shelters for males as I am a male survivor of DV and DA, I actually started campaigning because I was told on here that if I cared so much I should campaign for more male shelters.

Oh who'd have thunk it? We're talking about the men again.

Well Boney, all charities take money away from each other, sadly. There's a limit to how much people can give. I don't think that setting up a male hostel is directly harmful to women, however.

On a thread called 'A question for the men here'

Try Urban Dictionary 'MRA'.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mra

Also, back to manboobz, they have an interesting piece that touches on this very subject,
manboobz.com/2013/01/26/a-voice-for-men-well-support-women-in-combat-only-if-the-proper-percentage-of-women-get-killed/
You do have to read it all though.

Let's me be clear (ooo, I've gone all Obama)
MRA's are like the KKK, in the 1920's no one in America thought that any help you gave a white man automatically meant you were a member of the KKK.

Sorry 'Let me be clear'

The question was why are the men on the feminist section. Is it to talk about men's rights?

RM76 raised the men's rights bit.

I don't know why other men are in the feminist section
I'm a man, but that is about the only similarity I seem to have with other men.

I post on here very infrequently now, but I do because one, I'm a single father with a son and a daughter and two I did an OU course on Literature and Gender so I became interested in it.

I stopped posting because I don't think this particular part of the forum is ready for men to post in it.