Women are being censored because they wish to discuss the politics of gender. I say NO. Who wants to join me?

[Beachcomber]

Ok, I'm guessing that many here have heard about Julie Burchill's explosive article defending her friend Suzanne Moore against trans activists.

I'm also guessing that there are a lot of women who don't know that trans activists have been becoming increasingly influential in many areas that affect Women's Rights since the 1980s and 90s. These areas include feminist websites and blogs (such as the F word), feminist meetings and conferences, women's music festivals, in feminist literature and in academia teaching gender studies (a subject that used to be taught as women's studies) and in post-modernist and queer theory circles.

Transactivists call any resistance to their increasing influence and presence in these areas of female interest "transphobic". Discussion of gender identity as an oppressive social construct and as a threat to feminism and women's rights is also considered transphobic. Consequently, discussion of women as being a political class of people oppressed due to our sex and our reproductive capacity is becoming harder and harder for feminists to have without being accused of transphobia and bigotry. This is very very concerning.

Numerous women have been threatened or silenced by these people (for example they have been no platformed and/or picketed at feminist events or attacked and threatened after writing articles or essays discussing gender identity).

Let me be very clear that this discussion is about transactivists and people who threaten others into silence. It is not about transpeople in general (some of whom have stated that they are afraid to get involved in the controversy).

In my opinion, no matter which side of the gender identity debate one stands on, surely we can all agree that debate should be allowed to take place. One side cannot be allowed to shout down, threaten and silence the other.

The recent events are not just about differing opinions on gender identity though (or I wouldn't be bothering to post this), they are about women's right to talk about and identify sex based oppression and male supremacy, and therefore to fight against sex based oppression and male supremacy. And that is why this is an important if not vital issue for women's rights.

I think women's rights politics are reaching a pivotal moment - a moment in which we must stand up for our right to discuss our status as second class citizens as a result of the biological fact that we are female. If we can't discuss it, we don't have much hope of fighting it.

bugbrennan.com/2013/01/19/for-every-one-of-us-you-silence-100-more-will-rise-to-take-her-place/

To summarise the link - a well known and influential feminist blogger has been censored for discussing the issues outlined above. She is not the first woman to be silenced by these people. I think it is about time we stood up to them.

Thanks for reading.

Kim, you write But despite all the crap, I am still happier in myself than before.

I'm so glad to hear it! That's very good news, and cheering. Some of this discussion has been quite sad, especially looking at the conflict out on the further reaches between feminists and transactivists, with dykes being physically attacked in America.

I agree with Beachcomber that it looks as transsexuals as a group have been misled. She wrote; Liberal/individualistic/post-modernist thought encourages trans people to think that the trappings of femininity a woman make. When they quite obviously don't.

...After transitioning, lots of MTF are victims of rejection and disillusionment.... No wonder they are pissed off - a false promise has been made to them, a whole bunch of false promises.

This thread has educated me, for sure. Having seen the narcissistic rage on display in response to feminists by transsexuals I'm less surprised by what Julie Birchill wrote. She'd obviously come across this activism before, which was new to me. Scary stuff and this business about demanding access to women-only spaces is potentially a very big deal. Of course most transsexuals aren't activists, but it doesn't take many. Just one, in terms of law suits.

Beach can I just ask where the homophobia would come into it in the case of a MtF person who was straight, ie wanted a relationship with another women.

Oh Kim, I'm now wiping tears (very emotional today) I so hope everything works out for you.

Thing is, peeps, we all talk to Kim, would you deny Kim support in a women's space? You see I don't think I could.

Mini, think of the more homophobic types you have met, and consider for a moment if they would not find your scenario a struggle to handle. I think they struggle with any thing that does not involve a manly man shoving his penis in to girly girl

First - I want to say sorry to Kim for my above post. I just broke my rule about not getting personal with folks on the internet. I'm not sorry for what I think, but like I said, individual circumstance is none of my business. I think you are a good egg Kim and wish you well.

It's not about kim though is it?

There are a few men who I can imagine being as destroyed by the patriarchy as the average woman or even more so. (not many but some) and I still wouldn't think they have right to a woman's space. I would hope they have a space for them but where is the line drawn. It's hard for me because I don't want to alienate individuals but Kim is choosing to post on a site for feminist women and so even in this way we are forced to either self censor or risk hurting her feelings which obviously none of want to do and then the whole dynamic is changed,

Mini because the thinking that gender identity = sex, if taken to a logical conclusion, demands that lesbians accept MTF trans people as women. And that lesbians are transphobic if they don't accept that.

And that is lesbophobic/homophobic.

Again - it is a false promise made to MTF trans people that can only be shored up by dismissing lesbian identity and culture.

Lots of lesbians do not accept that MTF trans people are women - and surely they should have that right if we accept lesbian thought processes and experience as valid.

feministefatale I totally agree about self-censoring.

The level of anger displayed by a number of transactivists is out of line even with other highly emotive topics (e.g. racism, abortion rights). You don't commonly hear people telling EDL to "die in a fire" even though their public pronouncements are vile. But DIAF-type statements seem to come up quite often from transactivists. This is especially strange from people who claim to have feminine identities - on a traditional gender stereotype, women just don't behave this way - and neither do most men.

Thinking about the delusion which seems evident in some cases and the sense of entitlement (cotton ceiling, Colleen Francis), together with the rage, my view has hardened on women's spaces as this thread has progressed and I've read more about what is going on.

I agree with beach about false promises. Another important factor is that a lot of the surgical processes are being developed outside the UK - commercial interest from doctors and other "helping" professionals is relevant. When a person has devoted their professional life, training and expertise to a particular specialisation, it's very difficult to stand back and say "this is all wrong".

I understand that many radical feminists have chosen Lesbianism as a political position. I find this interesting because I am inclined to think that the only thing that is a given is sex. Sexuality and gender are negotiated through social processes. I don't believe they have found a genetic cause for homosexuality yet. I'm inclined to think that before civilisation and introduction of marriage/private property that at some time in pre-history we were probably (pretty confused) more inclined towards being bi-sexual. What I find also interesting is that men in Rome/ancient Greece preferred young males over their wives, what was that all about? So maybe we are becoming over time more homophobic? Why?

But my main concern is that (& this is what I mentioned up thread in relation to feeling uncomfortable) is whether for lesbians this is not just about the rights and wrongs of accepting trans women as women, or even supporting them against patriarchal oppression but something tied up with their own sexuality. A questioning of whether on an off guard moment they could find themselves involved with a trans women, would that not for them question their own sexual orientation. I don't believe it does but I think they fear it might????

I can understand why some butch lesbians are upset, it seems that it trying to set up a queer/gender alliance (& theory) that they are being denied their experience of non conformity. Maybe some feel that it could all too easily be expected of them to transition. But I still don't get it because I still think bi-sexuality is probably more natural than the two extremes and therefore what is the problem.

Flora I might just say that about the EDL

No, it's not about me. I choose to post on here to put my personal experience on here and to give some insights to people so you hear a different trans voice to that you often here in the media.

It's not about Kim was directed at Mini, but reading it back it looks rather shitty. It really wasn't meant that way... I'm sorry, I guess what I meant to say is it isn't just about 'our friends' iyswim. I realize these threads must be very difficult or you.

The liberal way of looking at the situation is one where individual rights trump collective responsibility. The individual has the right to and therefore access to treatment on the basis that no one else should prevent that individual from reaching their potential. Of course when things don't actually turn out quite so well, the problem remains one which the individual is meant to deal with. The fault is with the individual rather than in the society.

Mini this pretty much is the radical feminist position.

I mean disagreeing with that is pretty much the radical feminism position.

But my main concern is that (& this is what I mentioned up thread in relation to feeling uncomfortable) is whether for lesbians this is not just about the rights and wrongs of accepting trans women as women, or even supporting them against patriarchal oppression but something tied up with their own sexuality.

Mini - I think it is perfectly simple. Lesbians only want to have sexual relations with females.

Of course there are lesbians who accept liberal/pomo thinking that MAABs can become females and that is their business and look out.

But there are a lot of lesbians who do not accept that MTF trans people are female and therefore they feel no affinity sexual or otherwise with them and do not want to be intimate with them. And that strikes me as perfectly valid . Indeed it strikes me as lesbophobic/rapey/misogynistic to insist otherwise.

Hell, I'm a FAAB woman and I have no issue with accepting that lesbian women don't want to sleep with me because I'm not lesbian. Good for them, I say. They have healthy boundaries and self-awareness.

The social processes are to blame, society is at fault, collectively but within liberal theory the individual is at fault and as individuals we have the right not to accept another individuals identity......this means there is a contradiction within liberal theory. Well at least I think so.

Radicals are not arguing within the liberal social totality but from a position that questions liberal thinking. Quite bravely too. I am too but I differ on this because I feel that compassion somehow precedes politicking (damn the Bolsheviks) because it's similar to asking should we tackle women when they act as handmaidens because they are not conscious of their subjugation, or should we support them. Is support sometimes the same as calling them up on it? After all people find it very difficult to think outside of the social hegemony and as social beings we are shaped by both the material and ideas. We are not individuals without the collective and as such subject to the social processes that shape us. Another bloody contradiction within liberal theory.

I'm not insisting they accept trans as bed fellows, hell no. I'm just trying to understand why they might feel this issue effects them more than say it might effect me. Would it effect them more than me, I think it would. So I am trying to understand.

Mini, I don't think it is truly supportive of trans people, be they MTF, FTM, homosexual or heterosexual to pretend that patriarchal society will change to accommodate them, and that surgery is a holy grail.

Quite the opposite - I think it is inhumane. And using .

At best.

Eugenic and Orwellian at worst.

Because it is all built on a lie.

Beachcomber " I think you are a good egg Kim and wish you well. "

Pretty much the same line I hear over and over again when people rant about immigration in my presence and I pull them up over it.

What is that supposed to mean WidowWadman?

Is it just a way of saying that you think I'm a knee-jerking transphobic ?

Whatevs.

(If you really want to engage with the political side, you might want to consider that women are not the ones doing the oppressing in this patriarchal deal.)

WidowWadman why don't you contribute to the discussion instead of making veiled insults? Or not.

Are you serious?? Trans people are physically attacked on a regular basis and murdered. BY MEN! And you think this thread is horrific??