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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women are being censored because they wish to discuss the politics of gender. I say NO. Who wants to join me?

1000 replies

Beachcomber · 20/01/2013 19:48

Ok, I'm guessing that many here have heard about Julie Burchill's explosive article defending her friend Suzanne Moore against trans activists.

I'm also guessing that there are a lot of women who don't know that trans activists have been becoming increasingly influential in many areas that affect Women's Rights since the 1980s and 90s. These areas include feminist websites and blogs (such as the F word), feminist meetings and conferences, women's music festivals, in feminist literature and in academia teaching gender studies (a subject that used to be taught as women's studies) and in post-modernist and queer theory circles.

Transactivists call any resistance to their increasing influence and presence in these areas of female interest "transphobic". Discussion of gender identity as an oppressive social construct and as a threat to feminism and women's rights is also considered transphobic. Consequently, discussion of women as being a political class of people oppressed due to our sex and our reproductive capacity is becoming harder and harder for feminists to have without being accused of transphobia and bigotry. This is very very concerning.

Numerous women have been threatened or silenced by these people (for example they have been no platformed and/or picketed at feminist events or attacked and threatened after writing articles or essays discussing gender identity).

Let me be very clear that this discussion is about transactivists and people who threaten others into silence. It is not about transpeople in general (some of whom have stated that they are afraid to get involved in the controversy).

In my opinion, no matter which side of the gender identity debate one stands on, surely we can all agree that debate should be allowed to take place. One side cannot be allowed to shout down, threaten and silence the other.

The recent events are not just about differing opinions on gender identity though (or I wouldn't be bothering to post this), they are about women's right to talk about and identify sex based oppression and male supremacy, and therefore to fight against sex based oppression and male supremacy. And that is why this is an important if not vital issue for women's rights.

I think women's rights politics are reaching a pivotal moment - a moment in which we must stand up for our right to discuss our status as second class citizens as a result of the biological fact that we are female. If we can't discuss it, we don't have much hope of fighting it.

bugbrennan.com/2013/01/19/for-every-one-of-us-you-silence-100-more-will-rise-to-take-her-place/

To summarise the link - a well known and influential feminist blogger has been censored for discussing the issues outlined above. She is not the first woman to be silenced by these people. I think it is about time we stood up to them.

Thanks for reading.

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Smudging · 30/01/2013 22:21

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Smudging · 30/01/2013 22:23

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Writehand · 30/01/2013 22:26

Is it just a way of saying that..?"

Yes, Beachcomber, I think it is. I, otoh, would like to thank you for your posts, which I've found helpful and insightful. Thanks

WidowWadman, refusing to concur that transwomen are female isn't transphobia. It's biology. As in: not all females get pregnant but only females can.

garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 22:27

I don't think we're becoming more homophobic, Mini. It's a bit more subtle.
men in Rome/ancient Greece preferred young males over their wives, what was that all about?

It was about power. Only men who were fucked were homosexual; the man inserting the penis wasn't. This is still the case in various cultures. Roman soldiers used to present their bottoms to the centurion to show they recognised his superiority. While a man could go round asserting his authority with his penis, men who received it by choice were viewed as not male. Some were castrated for it, though I don't think that was common. The worship of fit, male bodies was a kind of auto-eroticism rather than homosexuality; both cultures were obsessed with physical fitness, for women as well but men were so much more important, thus their physical perfection was more laudable.

I agree that sexuality would be more of a continuum than a binary. Each society permits certain expressions of the middle range, according to its wider mores, and vilifies others. I'm not sure whether you could say our society is more flexible than most of its predecessors, but it's probably not less so.

Sorry, this isn't about the topic at all. I'm just latching on to the bits I can answer!

WidowWadman · 30/01/2013 22:28

"(If you really want to engage with the political side, you might want to consider that women are not the ones doing the oppressing in this patriarchal deal.) "

Silly me, got the whole feminism thing wrong again.

WhentheRed · 30/01/2013 22:33

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SolidGoldBrass · 30/01/2013 22:40

I find the 'cotton ceiling' thing pretty gross, as well. Pretty much everybody - and certainly every class of adult human being - has to deal, sooner or later, with the fact that someone you want to have sex with does not want to have sex with you. Basically, tough shit, get over it.

It is more difficult for some people to find willing sexual partners than it is for others but, again: get over it. Certainly these days it's a lot more possible than it used to be, to find someone who will be attracted to you sexually if you are in a minority category of some kind (that isn't meant to sound insulting to anyone).

MiniTheMinx · 30/01/2013 22:48

WW, why the sniping, join in tell us what you think Smile

Thanks Garlic I have just finished reading the song of Achilles, first fiction I have read for years. Really simply told.

Yes, I agree with Red, if liberals believe in self identity then it should follow that people that identify differently should be able to form groups with others that share that identity. This includes women (or should that be female)only spaces and radical feminist meetings.

If hormones to some extent shape and reinforce identity (I know not fashionable but probably realistic) then what would be the effect of rebalancing hormones to fit with biological sex. Does anyone know whether feminine men have less androgens as an example? I say this because men who transition claim that female hormones make the think differently, could be subjective rather than objective though?

FloraFox · 30/01/2013 22:59

Smudging women, really? Feminists? Lesbians?

I don't think anyone on this thread has expressed any hatred towards transwomen. There have been no deletions so far and we're 900+. There's been lots of personal sympathy expressed for the undoubtedly very hard lives of transwomen. It's not hatred to consider the implications for women of having their sex "deconstructed" for legal and political purposes nor is it hatred to question the dogma of pushing life long dependence on hormone medication and/or serious surgical intervention on people as a panacea to their problems relating to patriarchal, misogynist and homophobic society.

Beachcomber · 30/01/2013 23:01

Writehand - thank you.

WhentheRed, well exactly. And I would make the same argument to certain MTF transgender people. If you think self-identification is so important could you kindly let me self-identify already.

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Beachcomber · 30/01/2013 23:06

I don't think anyone on this thread has expressed any hatred towards transwomen. There have been no deletions so far and we're 900+. There's been lots of personal sympathy expressed for the undoubtedly very hard lives of transwomen. It's not hatred to consider the implications for women of having their sex "deconstructed" for legal and political purposes nor is it hatred to question the dogma of pushing life long dependence on hormone medication and/or serious surgical intervention on people as a panacea to their problems relating to patriarchal, misogynist and homophobic society.

Exactly FloraFox.

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garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 23:06

Hormones emphatically do make you think differently. They're neurotransmitters.
My colourful hormonal history (still ongoing - now menopausal, oh joy) has certainly taught me you can't take very much for granted about "who" you are at all. It's all done by hormones! In my experience - which includes a lot of in-depth discussions with endocrinologists - things like your core beliefs & principles, etc, won't change but your feelings about them, your motivations, your abilities, most things including your 'personality' are moulded by hormones. As I've posted earlier, too, they have a powerful impact on your relations with others due to pheromone messages.

I don't think I know any 'feminine men' unless you count trans women! I do know, though, that when people accidentally find out they have the 'wrong gender' genes - I've forgotten what that's called - they tend to go "Oh! I thought there might be something!" Then they just carry on as before, but with the 'something' now explained.

garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 23:17

I just googled 'cotton ceiling' and ended up on this blog entry. I'm furious! How dare anyone insist other people or groups of people should want to have sex with them?! And how can they be so dense as to claim this isn't sexual harassment? I would have thought trans women, the most sexually assaulted people of all, should at least recognise the inappropriateness of demanding that others consider them for sex. Just. How. DARE they?!

Angry

Don't get me started on saying a penis isn't a penis if you call it something else.
I called my husband's penis Captain but it didn't get a salary from the navy.

kim147 · 30/01/2013 23:20

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garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 23:27

Hell, no Grin

I had to find out what this cotton ceiling was all about. I read a genderqueer blog entry and the comments. That's it.

I looked it up because it's an important strand of this thread. Rather than taking the word of a bunch of radical, female feminists who are raving lunatic harpies, as everyone knows on something like this, I went looking for a few horses' mouths.

Obv I didn't assume every trans woman is whining about cotton ceilings. Well, not obv, because you thought I was. Hope you realise not.

garlicblocks · 30/01/2013 23:30

Oh, have I got the wrong end of the stick? Was it this? ... trans women, the most sexually assaulted people ... should probably have said 'group' or 'sector' or something. You do, sadly, belong to the portion of society which is most frequently sexually assaulted. I very much hope you aren't, and never will be, among those statistics.

MiniTheMinx · 30/01/2013 23:35

From that blogg I find a link to this cnlester.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/the-cotton-ceiling-and-gender-variance/

kim147 · 30/01/2013 23:36

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WhentheRed · 30/01/2013 23:45

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FloraFox · 31/01/2013 00:07

Mini that blog = "it's not me, it's you". Just yuk.

StewieGriffinsMom · 31/01/2013 00:17

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garlicblocks · 31/01/2013 00:18

the portrayal of trans people in the media - Don't forget about the lovely Hayley in Corries! She's leaving later this year, apparently :(

Jeez, I'd forgotten how crap Star Trek could be sometimes.

kim147 · 31/01/2013 00:20

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kim147 · 31/01/2013 00:22

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FloraFox · 31/01/2013 00:34

kim a lesbian attracted to a pre-op transwoman would rightly question her sexual identity because she would not be a lesbian. The assumptions behind a lot of the cotton ceiling blogs seems to be that lesbians either do fancy transwomen but don't want to admit it because they'll be ostracised by their lesbian friends OR they don't fancy transwomen but only because they're narrow minded / cissexist / transphobic. Meanwhile the lesbians seem to be saying pretty much in unison "it's not that. It's that we don't like cock! We're lesbians! " the lack of self awareness and sense of entitlement is staggering. And just to be clear, I don't think all transwomen think this.

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