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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

522 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 13/01/2013 19:15

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

OP posts:
mindosa · 14/01/2013 15:45

Wants: I'm not saying it has to be the death penalty. I'm simply saying that these kind of men who are violent towards women and children do not deserve any compassion. They deserve to be punished. By advocating their rights and letting them get away with "reform" you are sensing out the message that its OK to torture women.

No you are not sending that message and I for one didnt mention compassion.
Most posters mentioned wanting to live in a society that is better than the perpetrators, where an appropriate level of justice is given, whilst still retaining our human dignity and human rights.

By saying that they should not be put to death is not the same as saying that the victim should not live. Can you comprahend that? To be honest this all sounds like bloodthirsty avengers who give little thought to what the implications are for women if society becomes that violent.

What you seem to also forget is those men were faced with the death penalty and did it anyway.

Beyond satisfying some peoples bloodthirst what do you think your solution would achieve?

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:47

Wants if you talk about Jyoti's rights you have to talk about everybodys rights. You could argue that the the abusers had a right to grow up in a safe nurturing environment that offered them self respect and the ability to master their own lives.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:47

ExpatAl,

Good point. So shall we brutalise and sodomise them too?

Instead of making jokes and simply saying you are against the death penalty, perhaps you can come up with a constructive suggestion as to how we can punish these men. Preferably something that doesn't involve "reform".

mindosa · 14/01/2013 15:48

Grimble
Taking a life is a final, extreme etc
Most inmates on death row would I imagine want to live, the human will to live is strong.
So there is a big differenc between putting someone behind bars for ever and killing them

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:49

I am not making jokes. Please don't denigrate people who aren't agreeing with your every word.
Are you prepared to sodomise and brutalise them?

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:49

I have also not once mentioned 'reform'. I specifically said it wasn't possible.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:50

Yes,yes talk about the rights of criminals and lets sympathise with them and try to make excuses for why they are sick bastards.

That'll help women.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:50

Well then don't talk about rights. You can't pick and choose who should have them.

ChunkyChicken · 14/01/2013 15:51

wantstobe no punishment will ever be commensurate with those men's actions as most justice systems are not made up of 'evil subhumans' (to use your own words) willing to inflict such brutality on another human being, which is why we are shocked and appalled by such a crime - it is not normal behaviour. Therefore, I think you have missed the points I made previously - if someone is willing to carry out such evil acts upon another human, even legally, what does that say about them?

Yes India has a rarely used death penalty, yes these criminals deserve punishment to the full extent of the law and yes, if that's the law of the land, the death penalty should be applied. But questioning the principle of the death penalty, particularly when the situation is so emotive and the crime so brutal, does not make one soft, stupid or anti-feminist.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 15:51

Wants
In terms of punishment, my suggestion is prison for the rest of their lives.
They should not get out, ever.

TheFallenNinja · 14/01/2013 15:51

No issue with the death penalty at all. However, it's not a deterrent, just a penalty.

Whilst these crimes are utterly abhorrent, the UK media report it like it is something new, which it is not. It is culturally justified within certain sections of societies and meted out as a punishment for something else.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 15:53

Wants - you havent answered the question.
Who will carry out this punishment you suggest and how does this make them better than the perpetrators ?

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:54

How do you know they didn't have a nurturing environment? One of the men for example, comes from a good family, was studying for an MBA and worked as an instructor at an affluent gym.

Lets not make excuses for what is a unforgivable crime. There is no excuse for violence against women. Period. Making excuses for patriarchy and rape culture on a feminist forum and talking about the rights of men who rape and kill women is beyond pathetic.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:55

wants you haven't answered my question. Would you do the brutalising and sodomising?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 14/01/2013 15:56

If someone raped you or your daughter, you'd want then treated humanely? How noble you are!

I don't think she is saying that. I think people's definitions of "humane" differ. Humane doesn't mean, in my opinion, being kept in a cell with a television and an ensuite with a social worker and psychologist coming in daily to talk about their problems, like some people appear to think. Humane means like a human being e.g. being fed and given access to toilet facilities and clean water, and not being beaten, starved and tortured. However I imagine life in an Indian prison might feature plenty of the latter.

I'm going round in circles in my own head here. All I know is that India is a very different place to Britain and if they have the death penalty for serious crimes, then this is about as serious as they get.

It does make me confused when there is such outrage about this Indian crime in Britain and hardly a whimper about the similar crime in Ohio. I wouldn't have known about the latter were it not for MN. Sorry about the digression, but I don't think it's irrelevant.

Yes, I realise my post contradicts itself all over the place.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:57

ExpatAl,

Are you crazy? You are advocating rights for misogynistic criminals in a society where women have none? You are making me sicker and sicker.
It's not about picking and choosing who has rights. Everyone has rights, but everyone also has the duty to treat others as humans. If you can't respect those around you, how can you expect the same?

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:57

ExaptAl,

Yes I would.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 15:57

You still haven't answered my question.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:58

You haven't answered my question though.
How would you punish them?

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 15:59

I just did.

ExpatAl · 14/01/2013 16:00

I suspect when it came to it you couldn't. If you could you have a severe personality disorder and should go somewhere secure for society's safety.

Their right is to have a fair trial and be punished in a way the govt sees fit. I don't think their lives are going to end well anyway.

thesnootyfox · 14/01/2013 16:03

I feel that I should be against the death penalty. The arguments against the death penalty are more compelling than the arguments for the death penalty and yet if I'm totally honest I think I am pro the death penalty. I'm not proud of the way that I feel but it is the way that I feel. I'm obviously lacking in compassion.

In respect of this case I would in favour of the death penalty if it was 100% certain that the convicted men are guilty. I have no faith in the Indian justice system. We were robbed in India and when we told a policeman on the street he threatened us with arrest.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 16:03

Wow Wants if you really could do that then I am glad that judging by this thread you are in the minority !

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 16:04

Had they done to me what they did to Jyoti, I would want then brutalised in the same way. Had you been through that ordeal so would you.

grimbletart · 14/01/2013 16:07

So there is a big differenc between putting someone behind bars for ever and killing them

Yes Mindosa I understand that. My point was not so much putting them behind bars for ever but that they wanted that because they wanted them to have prolonged suffering, so the point I was pondering was is wanting someone to have prolonged suffering ethically better than wanting them to die quickly. I'm not sure it is.