Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

[SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh]

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

[Leithlurker]

Mini: I agree with your last sentence, humans do not enter the world straight from the womb pre programmed to be like anything. Racist, violent, capitalists, underclass, wife beaters or rapists. It is society that needs fundamental reform.

Ann what would you rather, women only make the new society? Punters and the others I mentioned are members of the human race and are not all one thing or another.
You really have got a bad case of idealogical claptrap haven't you. How the heck have some woman speaking their mind suddenly become a select few? Does that mean You are speaking for a select few? How are we to judge who the majority is? Then again this is yet another sidetrack or derailment about your use of power when we could be making progress.

[GothAnneGeddes]

OLKN - but it is a criminal offence to actively solict sexual services and it is criminal for more then one prostitute to work in one building. (hence brothels having to pretend to be massage parlours). These are laws that pimps would very much like to change.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

It's not a criminal offense to work in a brothel, nor is it a criminal offense to buy sexual services in a brothel. It is a criminal offense to control and to profit from prostitutes.

[runningforthebusinheels]

I know (of) a woman imprisoned for prostitution (a couple of months ago). Presumably this was for soliciting?

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

She may have been jailed for persistent soliciting, or perhaps non-payment of fines associated with that?

[runningforthebusinheels]

Persistent soliciting then I would think. A very sad tale indeed - involving her child being taken into care.

I would support the decriminalisation of prostitution for this reason. But I'd criminalise the punters.

[Franz1980]

www.object.org.uk/the-prostitution-facts

Claims "75% of women involved in prostitution started as children."

Many other websites repeat that statistic as well as politicians who want prostitution criminalized.

Sounds shocking and emotive doesn't it? What if I were to then say that statistic was a lie since the prostitutes in the study where that figure came from were all under 18 to begin with!

www.iusw.org/2012/11/rhoda-grant-and-laura-lee-on-bbc-radio-scotland/

www.sensuous-amanda.com/the-rhoda-grant-consultation-part-2/

[GothAnneGeddes]

Ah IUSW - otherwise known as the International Union of Sex Workers, run by a pimp, Douglas Fox. For more about him ad his organisation see here: toomuchtosayformyself.com/2009/01/09/the-great-iusw-con/

Fran, your naivete that under-age prostitution is somehow completely separate from the "legitimate sex industry", is rather sad. Your persistent slandering of anyone who doesn't believe women should be on sale for men's sexual gratification is unspeakable.

[Franz1980]

If so many sex workers enter the industry as children then where are the statistics?

All we have is a statistic which has been debunked as completely false since it didn't actually include any adults.

[Franz1980]

"75% of women involved in prostitution started as children."

This is from a 2004 study by Margaret Melrose.

The study was done on 47 girls who all worked on the street and were all under the age of 18. 75% of them were under the age of 14.

Doesn't sound so shocking when you know the whole story. Also street prostitutes today make up a small minority of sex workers in the UK.

[BuzzyBecs]

Prostitute is such a degrading name for a woman. The men who use prostitutes are men. There is no degrading word for them, they're just men. Every now and then when there are news stories, the women are referred to as protitutes and if a man has assaulted a prostitute or killed a prostitute he is shamed as a man with his full name. He is not shamed with a label as degrading as the word, prostitute.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

The men who use the services of prostitutes are commonly known as "punters".

[BuzzyBecs]

Yes but a punter can be someone who buys a pint in a pub. A Punter is not as degrading as the words A Prostitute.

[runningforthebusinheels]

You could call them losers.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

A punter can also be a gambler. There is nothing inherently degrading about the word "prostitute" but if sex workers prefer "sex worker" it would seem polite to use that phrase, and it's certainly better than the prostituted women phrase preferred by those who express horror at the very idea.

[BuzzyBecs]

I believe many, not all, but many women who work as prostitutes have had sexual and emotional abuse in their pasts. I can't begin to imagine how hopeless and what sorry state of mind they must be in to offer such dangerous services. I don't see that there is a need for regulated brothels when there is AdultWork.com. How long will it be before similar websites are making some fat cat rich? Some women are offering unsafe sex on Adultwork.com. Some are willing to have penerative sex and oral sex without condoms. I am disturbed at the amount of people who advertise on Adultwork.com.

[BuzzyBecs]

How about we just call them women? There is nothing more degrading than the word prostitute.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

"Brothels" (where more than one prostitute works) are actually the safest way for prostitutes to work, there's someone else around if the punter turns nasty. And brothels aren't illegal per se as things currently stand, the illegality is in both profiting from and controlling the activities of prostitutes.

Thousands of people advertise on AW. RadFems would have you believe that almost all of them are raped daily.

Does this seem likely?

[runningforthebusinheels]

The punters are the losers - not the women.

Sorry if that was unclear.

[runningforthebusinheels]

I believe many, not all, but many women who work as prostitutes have had sexual and emotional abuse in their pasts. I can't begin to imagine how hopeless and what sorry state of mind they must be in to offer such dangerous services.

Yes. But be careful - when you say such things a big klaxon goes off at p*nternet and we get invaded. Has happened many a time.

[BuzzyBecs]

I disagree OldLadyKnowsNothing. Brothels are often run by money grabbing pimps or madams. I think AW might be a safer, more independant option.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Presumably the brothel isn't acting as a not-for-profit charity though?

They're not there to provide a safe environment for the women (and quite frankly, some do the exact opposite). The brothel is exploiting and profiting from the women.

[BuzzyBecs]

I agree with you, runningforthebusinheels.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

The police generally know about their local brothels. How many convictions have there been in the last, say, five years for brothel-keeping?

Edinburgh City Council licenses brothels as "places of entertainment" so regular checks can be made by whatever authorities; H&S, fire brigade, immigration officials etc. Seems sensible to me.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

The point is that you can only be convicted of brothel-keeping if you both profit from, and control the activities of prostitutes; in most brothels, women are allowed to say they won't shag a particular punter, and the brothel-keeper can't/won't force them.

No control = no brothel-keeping.