Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

[SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh]

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

The list above is full of highly emotive language- words that trigger emotions when they are uttered. Is that its purpose?

If the things on that list are happening how is criminalizing consenting adults going to prevent them? Most of those things on the list are already illegal. So why would a law banning consenting adults from engaging in paid sex stop them?

Franz/s are you a banned user? Do you keep registering new accounts on here to post this stuff on here??

Do you know what, the last 'discussion' I had on here about the sex industry was with someone else who turned out to be a banned user What is it with them?

He was also obstinately refusing to acknowledge that any harm whatsoever was caused by the sex industry.

Franz/s/whateveryournameisnow: I still can't verify those figures. That latest link leads to the same 'not found' link as the last time.

So far, the only source I've found for those figures is 'rightswork.org' which the briefest of glances shows me they are yet another 'pro-sex-work' site.

So yes, still a mystery as to why the police chief says one thing, and pro-sex work sites say another.

The list is emotive yes and these abuses occur and will occur what ever the law. The abuses listed are covered under existing laws but still happen within the sex industry. How could a combination of existing laws and employment laws be used to ensure that sex work is just like any other work should the sale/purchase of sex become totally legal? you refuse to answer this because it can't. That is because all of those abuses are inherent to prostitution. In fact if you took everything out that caused harm to women there would be nothing left that men would want to pay for, would there????

www.nswp.org
I think those taking an anti sex work stance should have a good read of this sight and consider the emotive language that is being bandied about as it seems at odds with what is said by those doing the work. You might also take 13 minutes from your busy lives to watch the video made by third world sex workers (There choice of name not me making any judgement) say about the anti prostitution pledge.

scot-pep.org.uk/sites/default/files/download-files/in_whose_name_findings_report.pdf
The first two conclusions in a up to date (2011) piece of research carried out in a proper acedemic fashion are:
The majority of the migrant workers in the UK sex industry we interviewed were not forced or trafficked
? Immigration status is by far the single most important factor restricting their ability to exercise their rights in their professional and private lives

Yes Leith, why don't we all just shut up and read the pro-sex worker site? Sure

The language you are calling 'emotive' is used by prostitutes and ex-prostitutes. You cannot just disregard it as emotive - it describes womens' genuine experiences, their harrowing experiences.

Unlike just about everyone making contributions I am thinking of the human rights of those involved in the trade., I am not supporting any point of view although I do support having a proper evidence led debate not chucking about lists of quotes from either side, or dodgy out of date research.

Yes Sabrina do read the site and then comment. If you did you would see that unless you are taking away the right of those who are working in the sector to speak, it is from those very people, just like any work force they SHOULD be interested in what they do.

I'm interested in the rights of the 81% of prostitutes in Nevada who want to exit the industry, Leith. Why do you think they don't 'just leave' like Franz/x/y/z suggests?

Leithlurker and Franznamechanger you are clutching at straws and there is not much point continuing this argument.

Factual evidence CAN be found on www.prostitutionresearch.com/ and you cannot dispute that.

"Franz/s are you a banned user?"

I have no idea. I haven't recieved any emails to tell me I've been banned for my last 2 names it just says password is incorrect when I try to login even though I'm sure I know what my password is.

Anyway I'm not denying some workers come to harm in the sex industry. And I'm not denying some are trafficked into the industry. But the Q is is the problem as bad as some make it out to be and would criminalizing prostitution full stop be the solution to protect those who are being forced or harmed?

Underage sex is already illegal (regardless if money changes hands or not)
Assault and rape are already illegal
Trafficking for sex or non-sexual labour is already illegal

We already have laws to cover the above. What the UK doesn't have laws for at the moment is to criminalize one adult paying for sex with another consenting adult indoors (which isn't a brothel).

People who traffick humans for sex are already breaking the law. So why would they care about a new law on prostitution?

People who rape and murder obviously aren't going to care about a new law on prostitution it won't exactly be a deterrent for them.

Well, then yes, I'd say you were banned if you can't log on. I think you can e-mail them and ask why?

But frankly I'm fed up with having debates on here about the sex industry with people that can't even stay within the (very relaxed) MN rules. As far as I'm concerned - a banned user doesn't get to have their say on here - because you could be sock-puppeting, or on 'the list' or whatever...

You must have done something to breach the guidelines - they don't ban you just for being pro-sex industry.

I'm not sure exactly what rules I've breached it's not like I've spammed or called people names or anything. And I've never had more than one name at once so I don't have any sockpuppets.

I don't think I would call myself "pro-sex industry" I'm just open to solutions other than passing laws left right and centre banning things we don't like thinking it will all go away.

Over 10 years ago Portugal legalized all drugs and now they claim to have less crime, less drug addicts and less HIV infections among drug users. Interesting that.

www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Drugs are a thing, a commodity, Frans. Are you saying that women are?

I don't buy that you are just open to 'other solutions' - you have just peddled too many hooker myths, and linked to too many pimps "pro-sex work" websites on here. You have completely ignored posters like Prozachelps and the research of Melissa Farley. To turn a blind eye to that, in order to argue for the dubious "right'" of women to be prostitutes, is just a bit wrong imo.

I am sick to death of men coming on here calling us "emotive", like it's an insult to care and want better then womens bodies being sold.

"Drugs are a thing, a commodity, Frans. Are you saying that women are?"

No. Women in sex work are not a commodity, they do not "sell their body" (an emotive terminology used by some). They sell a service.

And the point I am trying to make is making a commodity/service illegal does not necessarily mean the trade ends or becomes safer.

And by dismissing groups such as Scot-pep/IUWS etc you are dismissing the views of their members (who consist largely of sex workers- the people who are more qualified to talk about this than anyone).

Frans. No. Women in sex work are not a commodity,

No, you're right, they are not.

they do not "sell their body" (an emotive terminology used by some). They sell a service.

No - interviews with ex-prostitutes show that very many of them do not feel that they are just selling a service. Read back to my post this about how prostitutes are utterly de-humanised by the work - they are "whatever the punter wants them to be." They are an empty wank sock - no other line of work allows for such dehumanisation.

Do massage therapists "sell their hands"?

Do engineers "sell their brains"?

Do male porn stars "sell their penises"?

You are actually talking like Belle De Jour now, Franz.

You can't compare those other ways of earning a living with prostitution, as none of them involve daily:

1. Exchange of bodily fluids
2. Risk of rape/sexual assault/violence
3. Risk of STDs
4. Risk of PTSD
5. Feelings of detachment and dehumanisation

Just as standard. And of course this is not an exhaustive list - this is just off the top of my head.

But let's not forget that prostitution has the highest proportion of workers who have been sexually and physically abused as children. Is that just a coincidence?

Actually the male porn star might - but male porn stars are a whole other thread

Oh, and as far as I'm aware, no engineers are trafficked, have their passports taken and are forced to sit at their drawing boards for no wages in a locked room.

For centuries, it has been accepted that prostitution is a "bad thing" - noone has ever had to go to great lengths to explain why, it has been pretty obvious really. I cannot understand how we finally make great leaps forward in the realm of women's rights - and suddenly there is a suggestion that prostitution might be a "good thing." You don't think that, possibly, the two are linked? That certain people, determined to scupper the women's rights movement, are doing their absolute best by promoting something that is clearly NOT in the interests of women.

For the zillionth time, the IUSW was started by a pimp (who advertised "a night with one of my girls" as a raffle prize). They advertise for members on P*nternet.

They are about as representative of prostitutes as a banana.

I don't know about engineering work, but there is far more people trafficked for manual labour than sex work.

are doing their absolute best by promoting something that is clearly NOT in the interests of women

Noone speaks for all women.

the IUSW was started by a pimp

That doesn't mean all of its members are pimps.