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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Random men speaking to you

767 replies

enimmead · 02/12/2012 09:38

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

OP posts:
garlicbaubles · 22/12/2012 21:14

Nobody said the brickie doesn't look friendly! He probably looks neutral, or even quite relaxed. Why might Ordinary Guy say "Nice day" to a woman but not to the brickie?

TheFarSide · 22/12/2012 21:18

I don't know Garlic, but isn't that what you are accusing men of?

kim147 · 22/12/2012 21:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheFarSide · 22/12/2012 21:20

I don't even know what I'm arguing about any more.

This has to be the most pointless thread in the history of Mumsnet.

inde · 22/12/2012 21:22

Nobody said the brickie doesn't look friendly! He probably looks neutral, or even quite relaxed. Why might Ordinary Guy say "Nice day" to a woman but not to the brickie?

How do we know he wouldn't garlicbaubles? Everybody is different. Some men chat to strangers when they are standing at a urinal. Most don't.
Now that is something women never do Xmas Smile
Mind you I have it on good authority they talk to women in the next cubicle if there is a lack of toilet tissue.

garlicbaubles · 22/12/2012 21:47

How do we know he wouldn't garlicbaubles?

We asked for volunteers and, instead of any doubting male accepting the challenge with a ready heart, they uniformly ridiculed it.

So I think they're hiding something.

inde · 22/12/2012 21:58

*We asked for volunteers and, instead of any doubting male accepting the challenge with a ready heart, they uniformly ridiculed it.

So I think they're hiding something.*

Now you are being ridiculous garlicbaubles. What are we supposed to be hiding? None of us know each other in this thread so if I wanted to hide something I would just have to say that I do react to women in exactly the same way that I do men. I don't. I do try to treat them with respect though. I have been called a perfect gentleman by the women I work with.

Incidentally, I think both men and women have said that the 18st brickie test is meaningless.
ThefarSide summed it up perfectly above...

The 18 stone brickie test doesn't tell us much. I guess the idea is that a man might say "nice day" to a woman but not to an 18 stone brickie because the latter might take offence. That doesn't mean the man is exerting power over the woman, merely that he is avoiding random chat with someone who doesn't look friendly. It doesn't really prove anything, does it?

garlicbaubles · 22/12/2012 22:01

Slight diversion ... Inde, I hadn't realised you're about my age. I would say that I know men older than me, whose behaviour in any company is decent and even what used to be called chivalrous. They exhibit a kind of low-key sexism, which is expressed in protective behaviours and - as long as it stays in the realm of manners - does nobody any harm. I adamantly reject being 'ladylike' but am more than happy to conform with what I prefer to think of as female chivalry (chivalreuse? Xmas Wink)

Some time around my twenties to thirties, "decency" in the pervasive sense got lost. Already a slightly old-fashioned value, it was subsumed into a double-decker sandwich of private sleaze and public decorum. Of course, the sandwich had always existed: primarily amongst the ruling classes, if I may generalise. I think we are still living with this transformation, the sleazy filling getting thicker and containing more revolting sauces.

When I find myself working a metaphor to death & beyond, it's usually time for a final vodka and bed Blush
Night!

inde · 22/12/2012 22:11

I have started on the wine now garlic and it probably shows. Xmas Blush

Thanks for the discussion. I do appreciate the calm and logical way you have argued your case. I would imagine there is more that we would agree on than disagree anyway.

Night!

Latara · 23/12/2012 10:55

Poor 18 stone brickies may get a complex wondering why no-one wants to talk to them.

I would say hello to the next brickie i see (ok i'm a woman obv) but how do i check he's 18 stone??

Xmas Wink
Latara · 23/12/2012 11:02

Ps Inde i have had men saying ''look at the... on that'' about me when stood in front of me gesturing.

Yes i expect they were plonkers (love that word, much better than swearing). But they were sober enough to know that they were acting like pr.. plonkers deliberately.

Luckily some men are nice & wouldn't use those expressions.

Can't say i've ever heard a women using 'that' or 'it' for a man - we do comment on men but always use 'him' or 'that man' or his name.

(Yes, it's objectifying too in a way tbh, but preferable to saying 'it' or 'that'.).

digerd · 23/12/2012 11:20

In the early 80s, I was in the pub with a work colleague. I was of the young, slim type, and she was middle-aged, with big curves and calves. She went to the bar and I heard the 2 men on next table saying " phwoar", as they studied her from the back walking, and made some crude comment about her strong legs. They must have known I could hear them. I was rather disgusted for my colleague, that they were so crude about her - albeit flattering and in my earshot. She was not the flirty type at all.

digerd · 23/12/2012 11:22

ps
And they did say " Look at that"

FestiviaBlueberry · 23/12/2012 14:01

FamilyGuy women's caution about men is not angst, it's a low-level sub-conscious caution, just as you would doubtless feel if you walked around Welling (where the BNP is based because that's where it is welcome).

For women, many of their interactions with men are their Welling. We just have to be cautious. That's not angst, it's an acceptance of reality - we can't take it for granted that we're safe. When we don't employ this caution and men attack us, we are blamed for not having employed caution "what did she think would happen" "why did she think he was inviting her in" etc. So at the back of our minds nearly always with men we don't know very well, is that consciousness of needing caution. That's all it is - a consciousness. Not angst. And mostly we don't even feel the caution until a man does something to alert us to the fact that we may need it after all.

Re the washing up, women who continue to voice their discontent are called nags. So if they voice their discontent, they are nags, if they do the washing up in silent resignation/ contempt, they are victims and martyrs and it's their own fault for not voicing it and if they decide on divorce as the only other course of action, they are lambasted for splitting up a family for such frivolous reasons as him not doing the washing up. Just sayin'.

Re the physicality comment, I don't think you quite got what I was saying. I can't speak for Somerset, but I still maintain that women don't fear men as a group because of their physicality but because of their behaviour. Men as a group inflict terrible violence on women and women don't know beforehand, which members of the group might do that to us, hence the caution when we encounter groups of men - we don't know whether they are going to be violent to us or not.

As for the male violence stat - I said it is a rare woman who has not experienced the threat of it. Men threaten women with violence all the time. They don't have to spell it out - for example, I was recently in a carpet warehouse where I was the only customer there and there was one bloke who was on duty there. I was looking at one of those rails of carpets which are hung up like posters and he came and stood behind me and put one arm on one side of me and one on the other so that I was trapped between him and the carpets. I was suddenly conscious of a threat of danger. He didn't spell it out, he didn't threaten me, he didn't voice any threat, but the threat was undeniably there, just in the fact that he'd trapped me in a space with no-one else around. When men cat-call women in the street, they are reminding us that they can rape us and frequently do; they don't have to say "hey women, guess what, we're bigger and stronger than you and we can rape you and we've set up a legal system which means you'll be blamed for that, so knuckle under". The threat is there implicitly, so implicit and so sub-conscious that although everyone's aware of it, there is complete deniability. "I didn't threaten her" "i didn't say anything" "it was just a joke" etc. The gaslighting possibilities in the area of sexual threat are immense. If I told anyone in RL about that story with the carpets, they'd prob just tell me I was paranoid or intolerant or sth. Because women are supposed to tolerate sexual threats and not over-react or get angry about them or try and analyse the nature of them - if they do, they're told they've got chips on their shoulders and should be concentrating their attention on something more important.

FestiviaBlueberry · 23/12/2012 14:01

"I seem to remember that statistically it is young men who are more likely to be attacked on the street than any other group." Only if you take sexual attacks out of the figures. Which is kind of pointless, because it's the sexual attacks that women most fear.

TheFarSide · 23/12/2012 15:06

Perhaps we can agree that a minority of men are threatening and violent towards women.

And that a minority of man are threatening and violent towards other men.

And that some women feel this threat more keenly than others.

FestiviaBlueberry · 23/12/2012 15:13

Yes it's a minority.

But the structures of society, support that minority. By standing by in silence, other men support that minority. By blaming women for provoking the violence, other men support that minority. By setting up legal systems which fail to hold men accountable for that violence, men support that minority.

That is why the minority have a disproportionate influence - because the whole of society supports them.

garlicbaubles · 23/12/2012 15:42

What a fantastic post, Festivia, sketching out the continuous background hum of threats to women, and the irresolvable conflict between "not making a fuss / not letting it get to you" and criticism or blame for not making a fuss when something bad does happen.

-----

Another little anecdote: Some time in the '90s, I witnessed a young woman following self-protection advice. She was a twenty-ish American; we were in adjacent check-in queues at an airport. An impatiently complaining man went to physically move her for some reason - not violently, but it wasn't an accidental push. The girl immediately turned round, shoved him - hard - with both hands to the chest, while bellowing "Get away from me!"

The man was affronted. Airport security told him she'd behaved reasonably. I was among a small handful of fellow passengers who congratulated her. Everyone, though, including me, was quite shocked. We're not used to seeing a woman address a potential threat so swiftly. I wonder what posters on this thread think of her reaction?

-----

The 18 stone brickie test doesn't tell us much. I guess the idea is that a man might say "nice day" to a woman but not to an 18 stone brickie because the latter might take offence. That doesn't mean the man is exerting power over the woman, merely that he is avoiding random chat with someone who doesn't look friendly. It doesn't really prove anything, does it?

It does! It proves the very point of the 'test'. Nobody said the hypothetical brickie looks aggressive. Everyone's assumed it's sensible to avoid random comments to someone who could hurt them if they wished. Quite clearly, this means everyone assumes men feel safe to comment at women because women are less able to hurt them. Posters here, therefore, have proved the point that men's remarks to women are an expression of physical power.

Obviously there are plenty of things you would confidently say to a big bloke. That's why the 'test' is a good one: If you wouldn't say it to the brickie, you are already aware it's a potentially threatening remark and are abusing your supposed superior strength.

grimbletart · 23/12/2012 15:54

Garlic: I have always confronted wherever feasible. I was outrageously groped in a crowded tube train once followed by the prat rubbing himself up against my arse. The dirty bastard had an erection.

I grabbed his hand, pulled his arm in the air and shouted "Get off me you mucky pervert". Cue stares from the entire carriage. He couldn't get off the train quickly enough at the next station.

Always always confront unless it is potentially too dangerous to do so, is my motto.

garlicbaubles · 23/12/2012 16:08

Hah! I did that too! Man had hand inside my knickers, I raised it and enquired "Whose hand is this?" Was great, carriage applauded Xmas Grin

TheFarSide · 23/12/2012 16:19

I think we will have to disagree on the degree to which women feel threatened. I certainly do not feel a "continuous background hum of threats to women".

garlicbaubles · 23/12/2012 16:26

I don't know anything about your life Far, but it does look as if the phenomenon mainly affects women who spend a lot of time in crowded places: commuter transport, city streets and busy buildings. Clearly a minority of people, behaving badly, could make a significant impact on the majority of women when numbers are high.

That said, I've known many women in quiet, provincial circumstances who won't walk alone at night or get in a lift with a solo man. So they feel 'background threatened', despite low probability.

garlicbaubles · 23/12/2012 16:31

... Plus, there's usually at least on thread on here by a woman who doesn't know what to do about a neighbour's husband who comes on to her at parties. Why doesn't every woman in this predicament shove the guy off, make a huge row and evict him from her home?

Why? Unless they, too, feel 'background threatened'?

FestiviaBlueberry · 23/12/2012 16:31

The thing about the background threat, is that we're not aware of it.

Like Garlic says, loads of women automatically get taxis when they could walk. They don't question why they do it. If they were asked if they feel a low, background hum of threat, they wouldn't know what you are on about - they'd think you were demented and paranoid. And yet they get these taxis, not because they are lazy, not because they are wearing high heels, but because they have internalised the background hum so successfully, that they no longer hear it. Getting a taxi is just automatic, they don't question it.

TheFarSide · 23/12/2012 16:46

Well, I live in London, and I did wonder if maybe urban men are more sophisticated and less likely to appear threatening.

I am not unaware of threat BTW Festivia, I just don't perceive it around me all the time.

My DH is just as likely to take a taxi to avoid walking home alone at night.

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