Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

low level conversational approaches can be harassment, that's the thing, and it happens regularly to women. with my two most recent example, mr hiss was clearly out of order, but what about friendly apologetic mr whatalovelylady guy - he even gave me a compliment! regardless of his intent, it came across as potentially threatening.

it doesn't have to be scary, it can merely be annoying. i have never heard of a man being told by some random, cheer up mate,it might never happen,or give us a smile, mate.

the idea that we all of us men and women recieve such treatment is disingenuos, likewise pretending that such attention is men wanting to make ffriendly chitchat that women are being oversensitive about.

Chibi,

That is where I would disagree with you. Of course I cannot comment on the specific instances that you mention. They may well have been harrassment. However, if someone has their harrassment radar on such a low setting that ANY conversational approach in any circumstances is considered harrassment, that is THEIR problem and not someone making a polite and non threatening conversational opener.

As can be seen from this thread, the majority of women posting find that polite and non threatening conversation from strangers is a positive and brightens up their day.

And as for it being merely "annoying", well your annoyance is not the arbiter of what is polite or decent behaviour within society. There has to be some general guideline that men can follow and it clearly is not to ignore everyone all the time, whatever your personal preference.

how about this for general guidance:

visualise saying whatever you are about to say to an 18 stone dude built like a brick shithouse. if it still seems appropriate,go for it.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I've arrived at the age of 50 without low level conversational approaches from men happening to me on a regular basis .

i also am wondering how these are conversational openers when the . man unleashing such delights is walking away after delivering his bon mot. perhaps i should be chasing after him and inquiring after the health of his parakeet or something.

my inability to understand these as genuine attempts at a human connection will no doubt see me dying alone, perhaps being eaten by one of my 43355 cats

how about this for general guidance:

visualise saying whatever you are about to say to an 18 stone dude built like a brick shithouse. if it still seems appropriate,go for it.

Looks like good advice!

Larry, if you really are as inept as your posts are suggesting, I recommend following Chibi's guideline before some woman's partner wallops you for your low-level conversational approach.

(Or the woman herself, of course, if she's not been disarmed by your verbal prowess.)

Not a good idea to resort to personal insults Garlic. I find Larry's posts pretty reasonable to be honest.

'Morning!'
'Rapist'

What should I have said to the middle aged lady who said to me today, a propos of nothing: "I never know what coffee to buy".

"I know what you lot are like, next you will be inapecting the contents of my boxer shorts" or how about a haughty "I am not in the mood for conversation, kindly go away". Personally, although I was not particularly in the mood, I discussed coffee. But there you go, I am an ill educated man, unaware of the annoying and harassing subscript of an approach from a stranger of the opposite sex.

Applauds chibi.

the pleasure one gets from deliberately misunderstanding posts is clearly a rarefied one,and one which eludes me

one to ponder during my death thoes as an elderly woman with no community, alone in the atomised anti social future

It is obviously hard for some men to understand what we mean here. I don't mind people chatting to me. There is a different kind of chatting which is all about men wanting sex or to exercise power which is not just chatting at all and nor would I call it harrassment. It is trying to get off with a stranger. It is not about chatting about how blue the flowers are. It is about wanting to get inside your knickers or to make you feel embarrassed.

I think the guideline of would you say it to an 18 stone man and you can see whether the approach is okay or not. I even notice a difference if I have my 2 fairly pretty daughters with me (20s). The help we get if we're on holiday, suitcases, men offering to do things, help out. It is very very different than if I am with my sons or on my own and it's all about men liking pretty girls which of course is not surprising and of course you can use it by sending the daughter and not the son to the desk to get something done.

We have had loads of different examples on the thread from public masturbation of men on trains to someone just saying hello or cheer up love. Someone making genuinely normal conversation they would just as likely be making if I were 85 with a stick is absolutely fine. The ex MP who asked me for sex after a business meeting - it woudl be have been absolutely fine as we're both single if he had said at the end of the meeting would you like to go out to dinner some time. I didn't find him attractive and I would hvae said no but the comment isd okay although after a meeting it's not that usual. Instead the asking for sex was just ridiculous but some people do that all the time and ask 100 people and 1 agreed. It is certainly a technique been known to work.

I agree about a different kind of chatting, Xenia. It is possible to tell, of course it is.

Why are some so reluctant to accept that the recipient of the approach will use lots of factors to judge that approach and, since they are actually there in the situation, reading all the verbal and non-verbal cues, they are the most likely to be right?

I'm not massive PC on the issue and it would be very dull if people never flirted, but the thread alone reveals some men just go far too far. Also some people are too sensitive but on the whole most women know they are subjected to more than men are. I would accept that men in countries which are racist and are of a different race or caste or religion probably are subjected to fairly similar things too.

FWIW I didn't find Larry's comment to be inept at all.

Kim147

I would not refer to another man as 'love' but 'mate' is often used, whereas I would never use the word 'love' to any woman (except when making cockney impressions to my wife .

However, I have been referred to as 'pet', 'honey' and 'sweetie' by women before. In fairness I think these are more friendly terms as opposed to what you ladies are talking about.

I have been around a bit (in a nice way lol) and female interaction with strangers varies throughout the country. 'Tarra love' is a classic Liverpudlian phrase and women use that on men a fair bit IME. Women use 'you alright love' in Yorks too IME.

Re: the OP there is no hetrosexual man that would pass a sexual oriented comment to another bloke unless it was a clear joke. Examples are asking another man to dance/tango if passing a narrow path and you do the akward left/right attempt at passing and simultaneously shift in the same directions.

If we're talking regular random comments then I make them a lot to other blokes and get a lot back too. But again I realise this isn't what we're talking about.

Xenia,

This thread was decidedly not about either chatting up or harassment. Read the OP. It was about whether a man could open a random conversation with a woman.

Those using the 18 stone intimidating bloke as their benchmark firstly ignore the fact that there might be legitimate differences between same sex conversations and other sex conversations and are, secondly, trying to intimate that no conversation is appropriate, without openly stating it. If that is your belief, why not just say it?

trying to intimate that no conversation is appropriate

What does this mean?

When you're ready to clarify, Larry, I'm also very interested to know what the legitimate differences might be.
When the middle-aged lady said "I never know what coffee to buy", how did you reply?
How would you have replied if a middle-aged man said "I never know what coffee to buy"?

Could you please provide further examples of ordinary conversations that differ according the gender of the person you're speaking with?

Thank you.

So really, what it boils down to after nearly 600 posts is that, unless the behaviour is clearly and easily identifiable (to men) as actual over-the-line harassment, we should just...

• smile / engage socially so as to foster community spirit / not die alone
• put up with it
• and above all - give the man the benefit of doubt that his intentions are honourable and decent.

The OP is above but to requote the OP explanation on p13

I see the ice thing is annoying some people so I'll explain. He was with 3 mates. He slipped over. I was in my car. He'd had a laugh with his mates about it. A few minutes later I got out.

"Alright love, did you see me slip?".

I just felt uncomfortable with 4 young blokes in front of me and suddenly being engaged in conversation. I don't need to justify it. I just did. So I smiled and said "Oh yes" and got on with my business.

But my point is - would he have said it to a bloke?

I don't think any man here is disputing that innapropriate sexist exchange is unacceptable. I am also happy to grant the OP that she is correct in her interpretation too.

However, I (as I'm sure every other man here) am finding it incredibly difficult to phrase the question, "Alright love, did you see me slip?" in a manner that suggests:

1. Power over a woman
2. Over entitlement over a woman
3. Sexism (other than the word 'love')
4. A request/demand for a sexual encounter
5. Getting off with a female stranger

The question has two parts, 'Alright love' and 'did you see me slip?'

The only part that is female oriented is 'Alright love' as I'm sure any person would agree that asking, 'did you see me slip?' could easily be posed to a human being of any shape, size, sex or sexual orientation.

What seems totally insane to me is that any man would say what he said in an attempt to exert his male privilege. It's possible but as a regular guy it seems totally implausible. Surely any woman can appreciate this.

It's possible he meant, 'yeah I'd really like to slip inside you too' or 'you saw me slip and embarrass myself bitch' or some other intonation that suggested some other emotional oppression.

It would be really useful if one of the ladies would suggest how the above question could have been phrased so as to show the clear excercising of this guys male privilege.

Is it possible that the guy's question was completely innocent but that the presence of 4 guys coupled with the question was intimidating?

I get that groups of males can be intimidating from the past few pages of discussion but am really trying to understand how his question was wrong in any way.

Best quote of this whole thread is from the OP:

But I just want to walk down the street without some bloke feeling they have the right to suddenly say something to me when they see me

Really demonstrates how warped this thread is. May God strike us down for thinking that we, as men, have rights.

FG2, FFS.

Enim has never suggested that the man who said it was trying to fuck her, in fact she has made it clear that she was a fair bit older and so she did not see it as a sexual advance. Her contention is that the man in question felt it necessary to draw her attention to him in a way she believes he wouldn't have done had she been male.

In your list, though please note that wasn't hers, the closest would be (2), though it is entitlement not "over-entitlement" (I don't know what over-entitlement is). The man in question felt fairly sure that OP both would have been paying attention to what the active male had just done and that he was entitled to ask her opinion on it.

Her original question was "do blokes do this to other blokes?" if not, why not? Could it be because they don't assume another male (iie an equal) would be paying them the attention they expect from any female? Could it be because if they did, the bloke would give them a WTF? My time is valuable, why are you assuming I noticed you? response.

GiveMe, what is the right that you want as a man that you feel OP is trying to take away from you? Bonus points for an answer that doesn't infringe any of her rights.