Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

I think there is a slight issue with men speaking randomly to other men. And certainly you would not address a man as "love" (personally, I don't know anyone who would address a woman that way either).

On the other hand, if I am out with my young children and see another man in the same situation, I would probably make some friendly remark to him.

and Merry Christmas to you.......

Not entirely clear how a young man, playing around with mates, who has slipped and recovered, needs to disarm a situation with an older woman getting out of her car? Was she wielding an ice pick?

This is all very peculiar. A whole slew of women come on to talk about everyday sexism. We discuss how enervating, belittling and sometimes threatening we find this relentless onslaught of mostly minor intrusions. We link to a website documenting such incidents, which contains thousands of stories and has attracted sympathetic news coverage ....

... and still people put a large amount of effort into telling us we have misunderstood, we're being oversensitive and we create the problem ourselves Ever heard of victim-blaming? It looks quite like this. Instead of insisting that what happens, doesn't happen, how about listening to thousands of women?

"The devil's in the detail." Not really. If you don't do it to men, don't do it to women.

Thinking about whether your fellow pedestrian on a dark street might be nervous doesn't have to be a gendered consideration - it shouldn't be, should it? More men than women suffer random attacks in those circumstances. Considerate alertness can be a life-saver for anyone, if the risk exists.

If you wouldn't grab a male's waist or bum while they're up a ladder, don't do it to women.

If you treat men as though they can get through a doorway without your hand on their back, treat women the same way.

If you don't stare at men's bodies, don't stare at women's. (NB: Staring is not 'looking'. You look at women's and men's bodies; staring is rude.)

If you don't assume male customers are ignorant or suckers, don't assume female customers are.

Only hug a woman when you would hug a man. (Partners excepted, that's a sexual relationship.)

Use the same endearments to women that you do to men. (Partners excepted.)

Gender equality. Doesn't hurt.

Garlic,

Gender equality does not mean gender blind.

If men treat women the same as women treat men, that is equality. It does not follow that a man needs to treat another man the same way, nor a woman another woman.

I think both men and women on this thread have been confused by certain aspects of the OP. I don't think the questions or disagreements have solely been from men. Therefore, I don't think the discourse on here has been sexist, or victim blaming, or asserting male privilege. If we didn't care about making mistakes ourselves, I doubt we (i.e. the men here) would have been bothered over 22 pages.

And if the guy in the OP had said it to me, and I had thought nothing of it, that doesn't mean it wouldn't have upset Enimead. So the idea that 'only do to women what you would do to men' still wouldn't have prevented Enimead getting upset.

Larry, you've never lived in Leeds [thinks back fondly to seeing 15 stone male bus driver addressing 15 stone male brickie as "love"].

Somerset - your earlier post about being physically weaker reminded me of a very interesting conversation I had about 20 years ago with a good male friend. A mutual friend came out and my friend (from a conservative, Catholic background in southern Germany) found himself rather taken aback by this. We had a long conversation - was this homophobia, or could he find a more reasonable response to the situation if we talked it through? Eventually we came round to the idea that what was really freaking him out was the fact that (despite any evidence that mutual friend was interested in him, and in fact evidence to the contrary - friend had come out because he'd started a relationship and wanted to be open about it) here was someone who could potentially be sexually interested in him and be physically overpowered by him. I pointed out that this is a situation women have had to grow up dealing with, and have had to try to develop twat/decent man- radar (which of course is not 100%, but most of us have it to some extent). It led me to speculate that perhaps this is why straight women in general seem to be less likely to be homophobic towards lesbians than straight men are towards gay men (I stress this is a statistical thing - you get homophobic women, and most men are not homophobic - but for instance, the level of acceptance of gay men and gay women in football is markedly different - there are no out male premiership players, whereas I've played in women's Sunday league teams where the majority of team members were gay).

Bit of a digression, but I guess I'm trying to illustrate the point that something that's part of the background noise of everyday life for women (in this case unwanted sexual advances, or attempts to "put you in your place" for simply being female) are events that are unusual, noticeable and comment worthy for men. (Disclosure - I'm white, and quite prepared to accept that people from ethnic minority backgrounds may well have to negotiate similar racist background noise in their everyday lives which my circumstances make me unaware of).

Also, I think almost all of us are very good at distinguishing between a respectful sexual advance from someone prepared to take a knock-back and an entitled one from a twat who won't take no for an answer. I also think it's disingenuous to think that all twattish behaviour stems from people who simply aren't good at reading social signals. A lot of it is perpetrated by a mercifully small minority of people who know exactly what they're doing - stubborn's example above of the conversation which progressed from "nice day.. yes ...[avoid eye contact hope he'll take the hint].. what's the matter don't you want to talk to me ... frigid bitch" is actually a man who is being deliberated aggressive and deliberately overstep boundaries. (Incidentally, he may be a misogynist who only does this to women, or he may be a misogynist and also be a sociopath to both sexes and do the equivalent to men - "are you looking at me... no [frantically avoid eye contact] ... what, you think you're hard, do you ... do you want to have a go.")

Also, Garlic, treating people differently doesn't necessary equate to treating them less favourably.

Most people know how to behave. With those people who lack social skills, perhaps we need to learn how to deal with them gracefully rather than insist that the whole world abides by a set of joyless rules.

In fact, Larrygrylls has put it perfectly.

Gender neutral does not mean gender blind either, Larry.

Gendered endearments, for example: If I call one of my male friends darling, he's likely to call me mate. The arty ones call everybody darling, mind you.

The rest of your statement appears to mean the same as what I wrote!

Who said a man "needs" to treat a man the same way? Although, for those rather slow of comprehension, I'd recommend doing that for a week. If you don't get punched and your male acquaintances haven't backed away carefully, you're probably on the right track

Farside - putting the onus on women to adjust their behaviour (be gracious, smile a lot, put up with being belittled) to accommodate a subset of men seen as socially inadequate is wrong because I think it's a mistake to see them as socially inadequate - some may be, but most are behaving this way because they think it's fun to insult women, and don't think women are people worthy of equal consideration (I'm not thinking of someone saying "nice day, love", which I do tend to interpret as a harmless encounter, but rather of some random stranger saying "nice tits, love" - this is not social ineptitude, nor is it a genuine attempt to engage an attractive stranger in a conversation which might lead somewhere - it's a deliberate attempt to discomfort and belittle the person on the receiving end).

Love your post, Lurcio. YY to straight men needing to be told they don't need to be any more scared in a gay bar than a woman in a straight bar! This used to be a frequent source of astonishment to the chaps in my workplace.

And everything else you wrote

Kim - how has you behaviour changed in this respect, before and after becoming a woman (apologies if that is wrongly phrased)?

It irks me when men feel obliged to pay you a looks-based compliment and then expect you to be pleased. The other day I was having a lovely conversation with a very nice man when he felt the need to bang on about how pretty I was. I'm not at all pretty which is probably why he felt the need to tell me I was.

Of course you have to act all flattered cos if you don't you seem ungrateful and he was obviously trying to be nice in the way he knew how - but why ruin a nice conversation with unnecessary, embarrassing and slightly sleazy remarks? I can't imagine telling a random guy mid conversation that he was oh so handsome. It would just seem odd.

"Kim - how has you behaviour changed in this respect, before and after becoming a woman (apologies if that is wrongly phrased)?"

Lol at namechangeguy! How many different ways are there to walk down a street?!!

I understand your point Lurcio, but I was talking about people and wasn't suggesting only women should adjust their behaviour. Learning to deal with all the weird people out there is a life skill for both sexes. I also think that if women start laying down rules as to how we want men to behave, we are possibly falling into the same trap of expecting men to adjust their behaviour.

And I mean expecting all men to adjust their behaviour to some ideal norm that would in fact be impossible to define.

"I also think that if women start laying down rules as to how we want men to behave, we are possibly falling into the same trap of expecting men to adjust their behaviour."

That's just silly the two aren't the same. Women can't stop being women. Men can stop calling out though.

Garlic/SomersetONeil

With respect to intimidation etc. you are right that men don't often think about exchanges of this type (unless it is borderline harassment) but that is not to say we do not understand. As I mentioned previously I am an ethnic minority in a predominantly white country (apologies about slight change of username - IT boob). I am of average height (5'10") and built like David Beckham, except with more muscle (~70kg). My wife thinks I'm buff because I love to work out but in reality I'm smaller than most western men, who are roughly 10-30kgs heavier. Thus I'm akin to a lightweight in the company of mid-heavy weights. Many of the things feminists believe to disadvantage them can also be applied to ethnic minorities, such as jobs, promotions, pay, stereotypes etc. Granted I am still a male but if I'm waking past a group of heavy set, white skin heads at any time of day then I can well imagine what it is like for a woman to have their senses rising. I grew up in a white community and although fully integrated was looked at and still am. Children find me facinating on the playground and women look at me, sometimes sexually (they may fancy a bit of foreign blood!) but others may be thinking, "why don't you go the fcuk home where you belong". Like you I can easily feel disadvantaged and vulnerable and can only imagine this is why so many foreigners live in communities. Personally I don't like the idea of communities but not living in one brings about other issues.

But it doesn't end there for me.

The internet is a great place, full of information/education. However, it is also a place that can frighten ethnic minorities. The BBC published the recent census results on their website and I read the hundreds of comments left by members of the public. It's enough to make a grown man cry, reading page upon page of comments from adults saying that people like me should fcuk off so that white brits can have all their jobs back or feel like they're living in England again; instead of some foreign mutation of what this place 'should' be. These are people that are potentially on here, down the street, who I work with, male and female so I get it from both sides. I see images on the TV of pro-white Brit campaigners and BNP members who visit towns 'educating' the public. These are sometimes heavy set white skinheads that could flatten a guy like me.

You may feel 'vulnerable' but I'll see your 'vulnerable' and raise you 'unwelcome in your own home'.

The only difference is I have chosen not to let myself feel weaker, more vulnerable, less employable, or worry about my personal safety. I will not let myself feel disadvantaged as I don't feel any thing other than equal. Equality starts with me, how I treat my wife/kids/others and how I feel about myself.

I completely respect your views but as feminists you are letting yourself feel a lesser being and IMHO that's not right. How can you ever expect the feminist movement to achieve 'true' equality if you feel intimidated by men? Assuming we reached the ultimate feminist goal, would you still feel intimidated by groups of men, due to their physicality?

Lol at namechangeguy! How many different ways are there to walk down a street?!!

Walkingcups, thanks for the lol, but it wasn't a joke. Kim understood exactly what I was asking, so you keep chortling to yourself.

I may be a feminist but I was brought up in a patriarchy and I battle daily with feelings of inferiority. I'd snap out of it if I could but that's easier said than done.

As for the physical threat it's not just that most men could potentially overwhelm you if they wanted, it's that we live in a "can't blame a man for trying" type culture which fuels the problem.

I'm sorry for your experiences btw. I'm glad you've found a way to overcome it but no one is invincible when faced with blind prejudice and superior strength.

Sorry namechangeguy but let's face it, you do have previous. it's an honest mistake.
And yes, your posts do make me chortle.

Many of the things feminists believe to disadvantage them can also be applied to ethnic minorities

YY, FG2, and worse for ethnic minorities in many ways. I did the Peggy McIntosh questionnaire after you mentioned it, and scored about half. I also kept in mind how I would answer if I weren't white and, as you said, scored close to none :(

I am in favour of more overt feminism and agree - to a limited extent - that women would serve themselves better by making more 'demands' and fewer 'requests'. My opinions on this have caused raging arguments here ... much as my generation of black people (and their parents) raged about Black Power. It's tricky, for an oppressed group, to negotiate the path between effective change and daily survival. Everybody compromises. The darker-skinned, the female, the elderly, the disabled and otherwise disadvantaged tend to compromise more than most.

In the light of your post there, I imagine you can see what I meant by 'white male privilege'. It's as though the default human is a healthy, white man in his prime. What suits him is what's "normal". Everything else is slightly unreasonable. This thread, imo, illustrates the theory.

Of course there are 'male' ways and 'female' ways to walk!