Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

Garlic,

"Did you see that" and "nice legs" are two completely different statements. Not me doing the conflating here. As for "hi love", it is completely harmless. Annoying, maybe, but harmless.

I was addressed as "son" or "sonny" and also "love" by older women for many years. They are just meaningless words, products of people's upbringing. To assume that they denote privilege is oversensitivity to the max. Privilege is believing that someone speaking to you is trespassing on your ever-so-precious time and that you are far too haut to tolerate the conversation of someone en bas.

Have you asked OP what she found disturbing about this little incident? I'm assuming it's not that "a man called out" to her or she'd be in a state of apoplexy most of the time. Yet you have chosen to belittle her by trying to make her post seem ridiculous.

I sympathise with Enimead because when I'm out and about and I encounter youths or young men messing about I don't want to be drawn into their world. Unless I choose to of course.
Was their behaviour sexist though? In my opinion if enimead had been male they might well have made the same comment but saying mate instead of love. So not really sexist IMO unless we are discussing the difference between "mate" and "love".
OTOH would young females have acted the same way. I think it is highly unlikely so perhaps from that pov it is sexist behaviour. In the case earlier where I received uninvited attention from a female it was in a mixed group. I wonder if a group of just females would have acted the same way?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Thanks for the link , it made for interesting reading and helped clear things up a little. I have to say that I'm well aware of equality but not of white male privilege.

Therefore I googled the topic and found the statement, "I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege". I guess that puts me in my place lol.

FWIW I accept that this exists but it's a non event for me AFAIC. My ignorance may make me privileged but it only works if you conciously think you are entitled to certain actions/events due to your sex/colour.

For sure there are other external privileges that are out of my control but this is largely dependent on general attitudes (which are changable and vary with cultures) so it is difficult to apply a single rule to fit all.

Thus statements like, "why do men think they can" and "men do stuff because they feel entitled" does not work for me at all because only some men operate that way. I don't (along with may others) so why do I fit under the same umbrella?

Ah, FamilyGuy - you've done it now. This will be like Bastogne. Put your tin hat on...

Random people talk to me all the time. On the bus, street, trains, in cafes, restaurants, hotels and shops. I have even had strangers come up and give me money "to buy some sweets for the wee lad".

I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. My old boss, horrified at my exposure to strangers' ramblings, would insist that I travelled 1st class. What happened was that rich strangers would talk to me.

I must have that kind of face.

LOL @ namechangeguy

I'm not trying to be confrontational in any way but am going to put on the flamesuit all the same!

Ironically I'm more of a feminist than my wife but that's another story

not read whole thread just first few posts so may be completely off track now but maybe some men do still have that chat to anyone persona and its some women that have become so uppity its seen as odd to make a comment to a stranger, I feel that attitude has contributed to the stand-offish society we live in

I?m male and I find more men will say hello, smile at me, strike up a conversation with me etc than women will. I hope that doesn?t say anything about me :/

I wouldn?t make a comment to a woman though or strike up a conversation at a bus stop just in case she did think I was trying it on, which is a shame.

What does annoy me though, is when it's early morning and i do not want to talk to anyone and there's one person who just wants to talk to everyone. It'll start with a comment on the weather, i'll reply to be polite, they'll take a step closer, they'll say something else, i'll reply to be polite, they'll take a step closer and this sequence repeats until they are standing next me and we're having a full blown conversation. Grrrr.

Shoesme - Nothing to do with feminism, but you're probably maintaining too much eye contact. Give them a full blast just as you finish speaking, then turn your gaze away. If they're stepping in close to you, you're either on a train full of aggressive nutcases or have very relaxed, open body language. Try the arm across the chest and the traditional 'cold shoulder'. Are you British? I got into endless loops with Brazilians before I cottoned on that their eye-contact rules are practically the opposite of ours. Every trite conversation felt like an intense exchange of burning significance!

You can always just stop answering. Have a google of "social strokes" - more than three each is taking the piss in most situations.

Therefore I googled the topic and found the statement, "I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege". I guess that puts me in my place lol.

Well, kudos for taking that on board :)
Deep breath, here goes ...

it only works if you conciously think you are entitled to certain actions/events due to your sex/colour.

The opposite, actually. The "innateness" of white, male privilege is that white men have been taught from birth that the world is their playground. The extent of this varies by such things as class, wealth and ability but, within any group of peers by those criteria, the white men will be the more 'entitled'.

It's easiest to see male privilege in action through minor giveaways - people sitting on the train, for example. How many men sit with their legs splayed and elbows out? How many women? See, the men get first dibs on seating space; women make themselves into tidy little space-savers. Coming in from the cold to a room with a real fire, who stands in front of the fireplace with legs akimbo? If you can be arsed, try counting the number of times men interrupt women, and vice versa, in a small social group or at a meeting. Loads of researchers have done this scientifically: it's easy to find their reports.

There's masses of little stuff like this. I find it fascinating ... not least because, as a negotiator, it served me well to consciously challenge the unspoken status quo at times.

Thanks Garlic for not chewing me up and spitting me out

In my quest to understand I read P McIntosh's 'White Privilege' and obviously her checklist. It was all very interesting but I really don't know. I'm on the fence with it TBH.

I'm still of the opinion that it only works if you live a life where you are not particularly mindful of others. To me there are two parts to this. Those aspects that you can control and those you can't.

If you go about your business autonomously then I concede that this theory applies but I (as do many other people) constantly question the status quo and whether our actions are an imposition to others, or seek to demean/lessen their existence. If so then I don't do what I may have been planning to. Naturally I'm no saint so often impose on others but in the main I try not to.

The other part of it seems to be an intrinsic aspect of being white, which is out of my control. Whether this really exists I do not know as I am not white. What I can say however is that I read P McIntosh's article and in almost every case I could not agree with the statement given. Of course I'm an incredibly small sample but as an ethnic minority in a predominently white society I have never felt at a disadvantage. This is possibly why I love the UK so much and what it has given me as a non white Brit.

My parents were 1st generation immigrants back in the 60's and I grew up in a family earning in the bottom 5%. I'm now earning in the top 5% so cannot say that I have been disadvantaged in relation to my peers. I don't think I'm particularly driven or pushy but have suceeded as a non white Brit. Thus it's difficult to take all this on board but am trying to give it due respect.

In terms of the examples you give I will look out for these next time I'm out and about. I can't say I've ever noticed but in truth I've not looked either.

You're right though, from a social perspective it is very facinating

Random women speaking to you as well. Men and women.

Annoying.

I am thinking that what feels acceptable in a relatively safe area,crime wise, would not feel as safe in a far more crime ridden area.

Interesting perspective you have re ethnicity, FG. I am white but my wife is black. We live in a predominantly white area. I often wonder whether she has suffered prejudice to any great extent. She always says no when I ask her. She gets on with her life, her job, and says she has never encountered anything beyond the odd name at primary school. I do think she has benefitted in many respects from being very pretty/attractive, but she has never lacked male attention - and never complained about it . Your outlook sounds very much like hers.

This whole privilege thing is a central tenet of feminism. In fact, many non-white feminists argue that much of the feminism you and I see as British males is defined largely by white, chattering class women who are rather absorbed in their own agendas, which leads to marginalization of issues that people who are women and not white are subjected to. Privilege is not just confined to us men.

namechangeguy

Thanks . I posted on another forum (dadsnet) about male privilege as I'm almost certain that it does not exist in any meaningful way in my industry. However, positive discrimination has become the norm nowadays so is potentially why I've been unaware. I would be very interested in how feminists view positive discrimination as it would seem to address some of the issues that I've read about. Personally I don't like it but that's my opinion.

Regarding your wife, it sounds like she's been fortunate and like me only suffered racism at school. Maybe it's because I've always been fully integrated and have never been part of an ethnic community? It's always good to hear positive experiences though so am genuinely happy for her

This whole issue is a complex one and seems to operate on many levels. Now 'white female privilege' is an interesting situation indeed so would also be interested in how white feminists deal with that .

Incidentally I read an article on the BBC about a black British woman that had to change her name to an English one so she could get an interview over a white female. Is this what you call white female privilege?

I missed the middle bit, doctrine. I just read the last few posts when it popped up on active - I guess it had just been cyclical and ended up with the same discussion points again.

Fwiw, I'm not denying that men can use their privilege to make inappropriate comments / yell/ wolf whistle. Just that, well, yeah, I disagree that this was what was happening in the op, and that I feel that it is quite sad that this is the way it was heard. Which, I think, says more about the receipt than the intention of the comment. And that's fine, too. It's culturally horrific that an innocent passing comment should be interpreted as an example of an inappropriate gendered approach.

It is funny that most men who yell and wolf whistle are not very well educated. There is not a single Cambridge co alumunus that I know who would engage in behaviour like that, or any professional man. Most of the women on this board are educated to a very high level. So, the reality here is that the women are probably net/net more "privileged" than the men that they are complaining about, even were I to accept the precept that within a particular social stratus the men have "privilege". Education and class (for want of a better word) way outweigh sex in terms of "privilege" in the western world.

Does not make the behaviour acceptable but does make the explanation in terms of "privilege" a little more dubious.

For anybody who thinks that men talking at you in the street is innocuous, and thinks that all you need to do if you don't like it is to politely tell them you're not in the mood for talking- have you actually tried that?

Because I have. "Sorry, but I really don't feel like having a conversation right now".

And that's where the nastiness starts. "Who do you fucking think you are?" "You moody little cow!""OK, OK, I was only TRYING TO BE FUCKING FRIENDLY! (said in the most aggressive tone imaginable)".

Because, you see, when you do this, you have broken the rules. The unspoken rules that say a woman should always be available, unthreatening and responsive whenever approached.

I wouldnt tell them I am not in the mood for talking. That would sound rude to me. They would not know what mood you happen to be in that day.
The ones that have done it to me were being friendly, maybe a little bit bored, and maybe trying to look a bit bigger in front of their mates.
Dont think they were trying to chat me up, not sure.

I would just smile, if I was not in the mood.

Stubbornstains - are you saying that all men live by these rules, or just the angry little men you are alluding to in your examples? Do you think there is a rule-book we are all given at birth?

Stubborn,

How would you feel if you said "nice day" to a decent looking chap with a toddler (for instance) and he replied "Sorry, but...." as you replied to a man?

I think that people have become confused about good social etiquette with strangers, full stop. It also differs depending on location, upbringing etc. I remember, aged 19, going for a walk on the Yorkshire Dales with a uni friend. She was saying "good morning" and "nice day" to all the people that passed. I, coming from London, assumed that she knew them all and she confirmed that by making up clever stories about where she knew them all from, before laughing at my "London ways" later.

Is it really good manners not to speak to anyone in the street? Personally, I think it is everyday interactions that make life interesting. The best way of dealing with it if you are not in the mood, though, is to smile, reply briefly and then apologise and say you are a bit busy and then look intently at your phone (or something).

[cynical mode]
No larrygrylls, that would not be acceptable because 'all' men do is talk to women so they have to suffer our utterances.
[/cynical mode]

Sarcasm aside though, you made a good point earlier that most of the women here are very well educated. I've no doubt that to rationalise feminism requires a good level of intellect as it's a complex subject matter.

However, as a newbie to both mumsnet and feminism I am struggling to grasp how so many educated women are making huge sweeping statements that imply that 'all' men are the same. Not some, or most, or even pockets of men and I don't quite understand why.

It has been said that a person that does not alter his opinion is like standing water. I believe this to be true. There are large numbers of men that are making considerable effort to change their attitudes, so that we do not stagnate, but I do not see this being acknowledged by the comments on here.

I'm not expecting to see gratitude or anything but just some acceptance that men aren't all the same.