Random men speaking to you

[enimmead]

I'm sure men don't randomly speak to other men in the street. Strangers. So why the hell do they feel they have to speak to random women. I don't think it's got anything to do with chatting up.

Yesterday, I saw a 20 something bloke with his mates slip in front of me on the ice. As I got out, he said "Hi love, did you see that!!!" I'm could be his mum bit older than him. Why speak to me? I just smiled but I bet he wouldn't' have said anything if I'd been male.

Just walking down the street, other side of the road bloke smiles and says "Hi love". No idea who he was.

Do blokes do this to other random blokes?

I am no longer a young woman, but I, with my innate caring nature, would automatically be concerned if a man or woman slipped, and act accordingly. I could not just ignore it no matter the age of the person.
Have noticed that when elderly women fall, it is the older woman who go to her aid and not men. When I was much younger I was shown plenty of attention, care and help from men when I was in distress. But I appreciated in those days.

ps insert "it" in last sentence.

Typo - for my last sentence, it should have ended '....he would not conduct himself in a similar manner if the OP had been a man.'

It's obvious some people on here have not read all the comments I made about the "incident".

Yes - he slipped. He was fine, with his 3 mates whilst I was in my car. They were still faffing out around the car as I got out a few minutes later. Then he made the comment "Did you see that, love?" - a couple of things I've already said - I hate being called love and I just was not in the mood to engage in small talk with 4 young lads. I am absolutely certain he would not have said the same thing had I been a middle aged man in the car.

It is different from just talking to someone in a queue - a point I have made repeatedly on here. But people still seem to think I am against men talking to you.

Enimmead

Please accept my apologies for the misinterpretation. As there were around 380 messages I just read the first and last 'x' number of pages and then posted my opinion. In fairness the first page definitely comes across as you not liking men talking to you. I'm not arguing the point but possibly trying to dig myself out of a hole ;-)

If it's any consolation I would never call a female stranger 'love' or 'darling' but am guilty of calling male strangers 'mate'. I guess I must be more sensitive to offending women than men!

namechangeguy

Many thanks for the clarification and no worries for butting in :-)

I may be very naieve but I've never heard of that before and am shocked that such a thing exists in this country. I'm not just saying that because I've edged my way into a feminism message board but am genuinely shocked that any man in the western world would presume to have rights of action due to their sex. I do have some very good 2nd generation asian male friends and it's clear that some residual male privilege exists. Whether this is part of their culture or the way they are I don't know but there's no way I'd treat my wife or any other woman like they do.

If I'm completely honest my only consideration when interacting with others is whether I think I'm imposing or may impose. Sex doesn't come into it and I certainly wouldn't engage a woman in conversation because of some innate male privilege.

Emin: What you have stated and what has been disputed are the same things. You say random comments in that situation were based on some kind of sexist behaviour. Others have disputed that it was both a random and sexist example. That is the issue and it matters not how often you repeat your view, it is clearly disputed and rejected by a number of your peers.

Enimead, it seems obvious to me that you were annoyed because they were men. That is the one definite incidence of sexism I can see in the whole sorry tale. We can only guess at the motivation of the guy who had the temerity to chat to you - he may have been being an arse or he may have been simply attempting to be pleasant.

You don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt - fine, that is up to you. But to assume he must have been trying to demean you simply because he was a man - well, if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is. I mean, how can you be absolutely 'certain' he wouldn't have said it to me? And that was your word, not mine - 'certain'. You can't, it's just a prejudice on your part that a man has to act in this way.

And agreed with by others.

So we shall just have to agree to disagree.

"But to assume he must have been trying to demean you simply because he was a man - well, if that isn't a stereotype"

I did not use the word "demean" - I simply suggested that I am pretty certain that if I had been a bloke in that car and got out a few minutes after the incident, I would have been ignored rather than having had to engage with 4 young lads.

Sorry if that made me feel uncomfortable for not particularly enjoying that conversation. It would be nice to just walk down the street without a bloke calling out "Hi love" from the other side or telling me to "cheer up,love" as I got tonight down the take away tonight.

Pardon me if I just get annoyed with all the unwanted attention. I must have something wrong with me.

I am not going to drag this out after this post, but I'd still like to know how you can be certain. You have said so several times. You don't have to answer if you don't want to though. It's just my curiosity.

I'm surprised this has kicked off

There's no way on earth a young man would have called an older man "Love", is there? Right there, that's sexist and intrusive.

In the exact scenario OP described, he wouldn't have said "Mate", either. "Hey, mate, did you see my slide & recover?" Eh? Maybe if the guy was a nine-year-old kid but, even then, to a stranger? Nah.

When Ennimead told her story, my first thought was that the kid had labelled her a Mum-alike. It makes the most sense (to me) - he'd made a bit of a prat of himself and wanted to show off? Not an obvious display of sexual attraction, but a different kind of labelling.

The fact that the two men participating in this thread don't see OP's point about entitlement is, itself, a demonstration of privilege. The bloke called a woman's attention to himself, in clear expectation of a positive response. You don't find that odd.

It's not unusual, of course, but try a bit of walking in someone else's shoes. Let's say I - all 57 lardy years of me - slithered on ice beside your car. I'm OK, I'm back on my way by the time you get out. You check your wallet, hide the satnav, lock your door and I turn round to look at you, grinning. "Hey, handsome," I say, "Did you see my slip?!"
Does that seem perfectly normal to you?

I don't think you have much wrong with you. You clearly have a dislike for one liners which contain certain undesirable words/phrases. Human interaction is a tricky one IHMO and whilst some don't mind, others like yourself do.

I wouldn't say that this was all one sided though. I've had one liners thrown at me by women (not chat up lines) so don't believe there are any dubious undertones.

FG2, do you understand that incessant, unasked-for attention is harassment? One of the joys of being middle-aged is that I don't have men constantly shouting stuff at me. Well, it happened in the summer (I must look all right from behind) so I amused myself by predicting the second response as they passed and saw the elderly truth

Now and again, a TV company or a magazine dresses a man up as a woman and lets him try it out for a couple of days. Without exception they are horrified by the endless calling. Yet it's there for everyone to see & hear, day in, day out.

Garlic

Yes I would have to concede that it could be a form of harassment but that's a harsh term. The definition of harassment is 'aggressive pressure or intimidation' and I would argue that a brief transient 'love' or other phrase is neither described. It may be unwanted and you may not like it but for it to be harassment it would have to be from a single person persisting in giving you unwanted attention. You say incessant but this, presumably, would be from many different men, which I would not strictly say was harassment.

I'm not advocating such behaviour or denying that it may be a problem for many women but don't really know what you can do about it, especially in our lifetime. Attitudes change and I'm sure such imposition will eventually die out but let's not forget that some women actually like the attention so perpetuates the behaviour.

Going back to the op I honestly don't know if you can make the connection. It certainly wasn't as clear cut as a wolf whistle or the classic workman's outburst but a more subtle affair.

One thing I do know is that, whilst I do not harass women, I will continue to say hello to anyone male or female that I pass in the street, gym, supermarket etc. personally I think it'd be a sad day if we all said nothing at all for fear of causing offence. Do you not think so yourself, or would you prefer a London style silence and no eye contact?

Blimey, is this still rambling on?

Did anyone ever decide if I was exhibiting female privilege by calling out to the bloke on the other side of the road after my own slip on the ice? Poor innocent chap shovelling snow and me not letting him carry on with business and trying to draw attention to myself.

FG2, you might be interested in this article about privilege:
whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

FG2, this is another interesting article which illustrates garlic's point:
www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/

By the way, I don't think anyone on here has ever said a straightforward "Hello" and nothing else would be seen as intrusive.

Yeah, it's still rambling on.

Enimmead is still "absolutely certain he would not have said the same thing had I been a middle aged man in the car."

Despite many, many posters sharing their experiences of how we don't all read situations the same way.

BB and MW, I accept Enim's interpretation; you do not. Fine.

But the thread is about lots of other things as well as the specific OP, other people have shared their own experiences, including Juliex. Hardly rambling on.

FG, it is constant for many of us. To suggest it does not exist is very unfair. You might not chat women up but if women make even just one trip like say I or my daughters might make from home into a work meeting including some walking and a train t he chances are (more with my daughters than me now) that men will make comments. It doesn't particularly bother me but it's sexist. It's about male attraction to women. the UK is actually much better for it than say Italy and indeed some continental women miss it here in the UK as there is less of it but it certainly exists. I am not sure it will ever stop as long as men and women are still around but it is certainly worth pointing out to men in general (although not wise on the streets) that it is sexist.

Here is another example that surely even the men onthe thread cannot deny is sexist... Xenia, not exactly still in her 20s, cycling - last 3 times on two of those times construction workers in a van slow down open a window and shout out or woolf whistle. They were not warning me about a flat tyre... How many times has Belfast B or FamilyGuy been out cycling and women have slowed down a car and whistled at them?

Xenia you are right and I was not suggesting that it does not exist. Indeed it is sexist but as a newbie look at this from the outside, am finding it difficult to make the connection with the information given from the OP.

That's not denial or wanting to brush over it but just looking at the text analytically and as neutrally as I possibly can (for a man!).

From a male perspective all I can say (and I'm not trying to make myself out to be a saint) is that my not being that way is one step to improving the situation. I don't like it any more than you but sadly some men love that kind of stuff so I can only apologise for those of us that indulge and make you feel uncomfortable.

Unfortunately (most) men are hard wired to find women sexually attractive and whilst I don't wolf whistle am guilty of thinking 'phwoar' in my mind if I find a woman attractive. Is that still sexist? I guess it may be.

It's like a religious man having impure thoughts but not acting upon them. Is he any more/less evil just because his restraint is greater than the man who chooses to act? The thought/desire is still there.

I think I've just talked myself into believing that all men are evil. Doh.

FG2 the other thing you can do is call other men on it. If one of your friends tells you about them wolf whistling a female cyclist, a comment like, "I wonder if that made her uncomfortable" would help.

Men are expected to make the first move to women. This may well change over time but, at the moment, the majority of women still expect men to speak to them first.

Now, of course, walking on the street is not the same as being in a bar. On the other hand, the idea that there is something sexist because a man calls out to a woman is wrong. It is no more "sexist" than a woman wanting to be chatted up by a man. Both sexes have different expectations (and there are also clearly exceptions, a lot of whom are on this board) but that does not make one set of expectations more "privileged" than the other. Inappropriate language or persisting after being ignored is, of course, rude and sexist.

I also think that those sensitive to the fact notice when men chat to them and probably forget when they have been chatted to by another woman or when they have seen a man chat to another man. It is confirmation bias in action.

It is funny that, since I have had children, lots of people chat to me in the street when I am with them, both women and men. It makes for a far nicer sense of community than walking in one's own little bubble. And as for the poster who claims that no one has a right to "her time", talk about a view of being "privileged"!

There's always somebody trying to conflate everyday sexism with courtship. What a pleasant surprise it's you this time, Larry

FG2, fancying someone isn't wrong. Like all grown-ups, you're expected to know whether acting on that feeling is appropriate, and what actions would be acceptable.

We have courtship rituals (as an anthropologist might say!) and we all know what they are. Invasive behaviours like grabbing at someone, humiliating them, calling attention to their physical characteristics, demanding their attention and so on are hardly likely to win you a new friend are they?

Men don't do that stuff because they want you to like them, they do it because they feel entitled ... to make you feel bad. OK, that's rarely the explicit intention but what is? If a guy in a van shouts "Nice legs!" at me, what does he hope to achieve? Nothing, he'd say, it's just a laugh, it's a compliment if anything. But he doesn't know who the fuck I am; no-one appointed him the Simon Cowell of random women's legs, and I certainly didn't run up to his van yelling "How do my legs look in this?"

It's very unlikely he set out to piss me off but, equally, he's not doing it as a favour. To him it's not very different from admiring the scenery. Which means I'm scenery to him - but scenery he can shout at, in the assumption it will hear him. He doesn't care how the scenery feels about being yelled at; he just feels like yelling, so that's okay. And if I told him, helpfully, that his behaviour's offensive he would get a bit annoyed. He'd probably say I didn't appreciate being appreciated, men can't help looking at nice legs, etc, etc. In short, he would respond as you might expect a shouter to respond if the scenery told him to keep his opinions to himself. The scenery's opinion doesn't matter, does it? Scenery doesn't have views, it is the view! It should expect to be looked at and pleased if you show your appreciation. It's not like it's a person, is it ...

the idea that there is something sexist because a man calls out to a woman is wrong.

Have you asked OP what she found disturbing about this little incident? I'm assuming it's not that "a man called out" to her or she'd be in a state of apoplexy most of the time. Yet you have chosen to belittle her by trying to make her post seem ridiculous.