Apparently I can't be a feminist because I changed my name when I married.

[dustandfluff]

I heard someone (a feminist writer dunno who) on Radio 4 a few months ago saying women who change their names when they get married are not feminists.

. I have long been interested in feminism and women's rights. I appreciate the feminist arguments against changing your name. I had my reasons but I don't think that's relevant here. To me this sounds as though to "be" a feminist you have to meet a particular standard.

I think this is the kind of thing that puts a lot of women off the movement.

Opinion s anyone?

Feminists don't tell other women what to do.

Patriarchy does.

Feminists critique what women do and why they do it in a patriarchy and lots of women perceive that as being told what to do by feminists while never noticing how much they're being pressurised into doing things by patriarchal expectations.

It's so vapid.

Really, Hully? I'm pretty sure most of us make the "non-feminist" choice from time to time, doesn't mean we aren't feminists.

Giving DC their father's surname similarly patriarchal?

"Giving DC their father's surname similarly patriarchal? "

Yes, absolutely.

"I think you can change your name and hold other feminist views, but I don't think you can call yourself a feminist if you change your name thereby subscribing to a patriarchal practice that helps to uphold the status of women as second class."

I appreciate where you're coming from here Hully, but that is one of very few remarks I have read on MN that has actually personally offended me (I think because it strikes me that you are being entirely sincere).

How dare you say I'm not a feminist? What kind of way is that to encourage women to have their eyes opened to how important feminism and its ideas are? I mean really? Apart from the fact that women can make an informed and reasoned choice about name-changing with an understanding of the cultural connotations, you may be addressing women who got married 20 years ago but maybe didn't discover/think about feminism until more recently, are they excluded from the club?

As I said earlier, I've only partially changed my name (I'm Mrs. X to my ds's school, my family and not much else) and kept my unmarried name for professional reasons. I see no reason why these choices should reflect upon my status as a feminist.

It really would be a feminist statement to rename yourself in an entirely new way to escape the culture of names being passed down by males, but to just keep your existing name which is so ingrained in that culture anyway? To me it's not really much of a statement.

I can't see that you are any better off- it appears that someone is still having expectations of what you should do. Why is it different if you are pressurised by a woman than a man? Why can't you just choose? I am for equality and either everyone, male or female should keep the name they were born with or half of the men in the world should change on marriage and half of the women should change.

Indeed, TheDoctrine

"I think you can change your name and hold other feminist views, but I don't think you can call yourself a feminist if you change your name "

So you need to do all totally feminist activities in order to be a feminist?

Wonder where all the people went who claimed that no one ever told someone they couldn't call themselves a feminist..

I'm liberal on it,live the principles you adhere to and no I won't be dictated to what is or isn't feminist
life is murky,it's about positive risks,and we all compromise to greater or lesser extent

It's my view. You don't have to agree. Why get offended? If you disagree, you disagree.

yes but disagreeing doesn't make one more or less feminist

I don't recognise this nonsense of being pressurised by women Exoticfruits.

Except MILs who want you to have their little boy's name.

There isn't this whole big edifice of feminism which is subtly pressuring you into not changing your name.

Changing your name is the default.

I disagree that you can't do something not feminist and not be a feminist. My objection isn't to people doing stuff not feminist (I do loads that isn't) it's when they tell me that everything they do is feminist because they're feminist.

That's silly.

In that case we can just agree- I changed my name because I wanted to and I am free to do so. (MIL dead before I met DH)

If I get to be a MIL (I have 3DSs) then future DILs can have a free choice- it will be nothing to do with me.

"It's my view. You don't have to agree. Why get offended? If you disagree, you disagree. "

I'm offended because it's a judgement you have made on a lot of women (including me) which is deeply unhelpful to feminism IMO. Perhaps offended is the wrong word but I had a strong reaction to reading what you wrote.

I guess it's the prescriptive nature of your opinion. "You can't call yourself a feminist." I think there are probably activities that I could partake in as a woman that might preclude me from being as being accepted as a feminist but I can't for the life of me see that the name thing is one of them.

I don't go in for choice feminism (I made a choice, I'm a woman, therefore it is a feminist choice) but I do think that prescribing a narrow set of behaviours in order to be a feminist is counter-productive to say the least.

I believe in equality of opportunity and equality of outcome and there are many cultural and political changes that need to take place to achieve that, and I'm not denying that taking your husband's name is part of a patriarchal system. I guess I just don't think the name change in and of itself is necessarily an anti-feminist act (if entered into informed).

Perhaps the way to go with the name issue is to no longer name our children after ourselves? After all a name is bestowed upon all of us with no choice, perhaps at least if we had a unique identifier and it was no longer expected that a family all shared a name - I mean why is it really necessary? - freedom of choice would be more open and women wouldn't feel the desire to change their name so that their husband, children and themselves all share it.

I'm not being facetious, this thread made me think about the whole concept and it's a bit weird once you start ruminating. Why is something as important as your name decided at birth by your parents and why do people (generally) accept their names even if they don't like them that much? Maybe we should be named for convenience by our parents and then at a certain age have an opportunity to amend our birth certificates to reflect the name we have chosen for ourselves.

Jeez, I've not even started on the wine yet... Perhaps I should :D

I agree fork.

And I'm not interested in prescribing behaviousrs per se, it just seems to me that feminism is about the liberation and empowerment of women, and that not changing your name is a really really easy way to not subscribe to the patriarchal way, so er...

I really do see where you're coming from (and I wonder what my actions would have been had I liked my birth name more) but I can't see that that act of not taking your husband's name is radical enough to make an impact.
Just playing devil's advocate I think it would be easier to argue that marriage itself is an anti-feminist act rather than the name-changing that goes along with it.

Hang on a minute - not changing your name is really really easy?

I know it's harking back a bit, but have just seem summer's comment about staying married being an achievement. People tend to change their name ON marriage, not as some sort of long-service award for surviving ten years without walking out. And it's not a personal failing if your marriage ends, necessarily - if your husband (or wife) has an affair, or turns violent, are you somehow less worthy than you were when you thought everything was fine?

(FWIW I have been married for considerably more than a decade although I sometimes do dream of MN-stylie leaving the bastard when he dumps his pants on TOP of the linen bin, yet again, instead of lifting the sodding lid and putting them inside.)

I'm really very offended to be told I'm not a proper feminist because I have my husband's surname and identify as a Mrs and very surprised that it's Hully telling me so.

Is the simple fact that keeping your own surname is actually keeping your father's ( or certainly a man's name somewhere along the line) ) name escaping people? So it's ok to have a name that belongs to your father because......?

Double-barrelled is all very well until your child marries, then what happens, ridiculous triple/quadruple surnames?

Look, two things...

1. Obviously I really don't want to upset or offend anyone because a) it's counter productive and b) why on earth would I?

But I don't understand this taking offence at someone with a different point of view. I'm not offended by those taking the man's name just because it isn't a good idea in my view (because of the historical associations etc).

1. As I said before, to me, it is a question of logicality.

To be a feminist means working towards the emancipation, liberation and empowerment of women. Buying into a patriarchal tradition that was about male ownership is not consistent with that aim. Ergo, it is not the action of a feminist.

To explain further, I have been forbidden by some friends to call myself a socialist, because although my natural feelings, politics and inclinations lie that way, some of my lifestyle and actions are inconsistent with that label. I had to think long and hard about it and ultimately agree. Now I just call myself a hypocritical-socialist-with-good-intentions-yet-who-does-the-necessary-in-a-capitalist-system.

And no I am not suggesting anyone call themselves a hypocritical-feminist...

Of course it is easy to not change your name, all you have to do is nothing.

And furthermore(!) taking offence is just dull, much more interesting to have a good old talk about it all.

I think that feminism is a set of beliefs.

So someone can be a feminist in their beliefs even though some of their actions may be actions that do not further the cause of feminism.

I'm expect that some of the things I do are not positively feminist actions, either because:
I don't realise that the thing I am doing is unfeminist.
I do realise it but am too lazy/selfish/conditioned by the patriarchy to make the effort to do make the more feminist choice.

I think it's wrong to tell someone "you are not a feminist" but it's okay to point out to me that something I am doing is not furthering the rights of women.