Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

No myth Liz, the Leeds research mentioned seems to prove it. 87% have some form of higher education and the vast majority are satisfied or highly satisfied with their work. And this is from the largest research of its type. Proof is there it seems [hshock]

Yy to morebeta & happyhalloween.

I suspect that this is more likely the reality for most dancers, unfortunately.

I sincerely wish it were true that lap dancing empowered women and made them rich beyond their wildest dreams - but the truth is that it is the (mostly male) club owners who make the big money. Just read the details of what the club charges for alcohol and dances, and what the dancers get (sometimes barely breaking even).

Interestingly, the Windmill owner in the above article loses his cheerful bonhomie very quickly when he finds the reporter talking to the dancers on their own - and even more interesting are the admissions that the money and treatment by these clubs isn't all it's made out to be on these threads.

Possibly even more interesting than that is Oscar Owide's admission that despite his son being involved in his business for the last 25yrs, he doesn't want his grandchildren in his club, or taking over the business in the future: "They're all doing more professional things. They will lead different lives". And that's from the club owner. It's a seedy business.

Sausage, I've thought it through, thanks

Do you want me to change my opinion ?

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

Pro-sex industry lobbyists (and yes, even the ones that are on the fence but feel impelled to look for the "good" in it) simply look to me like they are only looking out for their own rights. Their "right" to pay women to perform a sexual service, that is.

It is wrong and you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

Well that is your opinion, as I said previously your entitled to it but think what you base that on... just your opinion and the facts and research point towards the facts that the dancers are happy and you want to deny them choice.

Anyway 2 boys need new shoes, I will be back later and I will challenge opinions based on "facts" that are incorrect.

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone!

Bottom line, sausage. We don't live in a black and white world, do we ? Facts are not enough. This statement is forced down my neck every time I pipe up and object to the sex industry on social and moral grounds, so it goes both ways.

I have given up linking to articles and pieces that point out the damage done to women who are now out of the industry. The people who think their right to coerce a woman to dance naked for them with money will never listen to those so what is the point ?

facts/schmacts, fuck 'em all

I know that kritiq (I have had enough pm's from people to thank me for my contributions to realise that is true)

However, I think this board has moved into a different place now. Or maybe it's just me that's done that < shrug >

This is why these threads are a waste of time. If person A thinks something is morally wrong and damaging to women as a whole, no amount of "facts" (that are all countered if you read another article/citation etc) will change their mind.

That surely depends on the individual. Some people are more amenable to revising their opinions in the light of new information than others.

Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

And then there are those of us who are posting, precisely because we don't have a set opinion yet on which side of the debate outweighs the other; so we want to test the boundaries of where various arguments might fall down.

I've certainly changed or developed my views about a wide range of issues after having discussed them on forums and elsewhere.

^But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone! ^

Now this i do agree with, however as a number of perosnal insults, mocking, and flaming have been posted on here from the anti lap dancing side. I think for the casual on lookers they are not painting a great picture for themselves, and just smacks as throwing the dolly out of the pram or not being able to handle the argument.

I think the club owners and the men who frequent these clubs have to keep up the illusion that the dancers are happy and wellnpaid, that it's all a bit of fun, a bit like a gentleman's club. For the sake of their own self esteem the dancers have to maintain this illusion to a certain extent too- until they leave the business and they generally tell a truer representation of lap dancing as a career.

If this illusion of happy beautiful girls being well paid and enjoying themselves, being bought drinks and performing dances for men, was ever shattered, well then, you'd be left with the dingy reality of lap dancing clubs wouldn't you. And that's not pretty- and is why those that profit from the sex industry go to great lengths to perpetuate the 'happy hooker/lap dancer' myth and the 'its just harmless fun' myth.

I disagree, DD

There are many lurkers out there who, every time you make another contribution, are confirmed in their opinion that you are a punter who doesn't really care much for the "rights" of women to provide sexual services, but rather to argue that men's rights to buy them trump any pesky "downsides" to the practice

you are just another one of them

it takes a rather stupid, close-minded, invested and entitled person to fall for those myths, IMO

*closed

keep the insults flowing Happy I am not going to get into a flame war with you, which you appear to be trying to bait me into one.

Well, that's it in a nutshell really Sabrina. Just as Nestle uses images of fat, happy babies and smiling parents to promote baby milk and plastic surgeons use the testimonies of people whose lives have been dramatically and happily changed by having "work done," the "sex industry," has to convey an image that all is right in the garden and dismiss any suggestion of a down side to their "products" if they want to keep the cash flowing in. It's simple really.

And men who consume these products also have a vested interest in "proving" that they are doing nothing wrong, that it's all harmless or even good for the women, for society, for the economy, for freedom, for liberty or whatever other guff they think will con people into thinking it's all tickity boo. Well, of course they do.

It's not an insult, DD. You keep banging on about the "facts" so that's my version of them < shrug >

Sabrina,

But the article that started this thread was from the Guardian - a usually leftish, capitalism-challenging and feminism-friendly source - reporting on an academic study from the University Of Leeds.

I know nothing about the University of Leeds other than that it's a university and therefore probably interested in maintaining whatever reputation it has for objectivity and rigorousness in research. The only way the observations you make would colour it, would be if the people doing the research were all secretly in cahoots with the lapdancing industry. In fact, given that one of the main functions of university media studies departments, politics departments and the like is often to challenge the status quo in society and encourage students to question it, I'd think it more likely that the opposite might be the case.

At the very least, I don't see how we can conclude that the study and/or the reporting on it are biased in the way you describe without some evidence of the fact.

I think may some people are finding it difficult to accept because they naturally lump it in with prostitution and porn. But the clear dividing line in terms of physical contact must make a huge difference. It's much easier to believe that a certain number of women are relaxed about taking their clothes off on stage and consider it worth the money they get, than that the same women would be relaxed about having sex with strangers every day.

It's the same continuum, Loris.

Women as commodified pieces of meat for the male gaze (and their handmaidens)

Do you think LDC's are sweet little family-run businesses like my favourite cupcake shop in Cumbria ? Or do you think they are part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?

Take your pick

The Guardian I believe is experiencing some financial difficulties

it's not difficult to see how "shockjocking" will bring in the readers

and every link to the article, from every website like this one brings in more attention and advertising revenue

think about it, you are being manipulated, we all are

What do you all think about women who go to see male strippers, or girls who hire a male stripper for their b'day party? Are they "objectifying" men?

Frans i posted something similar a few pages back in the thread, and noted that a fair few customers are indeed female. I do love how the objectors always play this down and make out that it's only a bit of fun when women are watching male strippers but with men watching women it's something more sinister. I also wonder what people think of women watching women (hetro/bi or lesbian) and couples who visit lap dancing clubs?

and just to throw another spanner into the works i wondered what people thought to 'host' bars?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19570750

I say whatever floats your boat to all these activites

Somehow I can't imagine you eating cupcakes, MotherFucker

But yes absolutely to all your points above. I would add that the comments/arguments from you, Kritiq, Sabrina etc are also really valuable for people like me who are instinctively uncomfortable with strip clubs but haven't yet thought through all the issues involved.

Do you think LDC's are sweet little family-run businesses like my favourite cupcake shop in Cumbria ? Or do you think they are part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?

Take your pick

Sorry are those my only options?

I certainly don't think the University of Leeds is "part of the massively male-dominated sex industry with links to drugs, porn, human trafficking, prostitution and all-round general misery?" I have no reason to suspect it is. I don't even know whether the researchers were male or female.

oh, I love a sweet little cupcake, myself [hsmile]

DD, not all women play down male stripping

Both hands on the keyboard, eh ? [hwink]