Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

So what do lap dancers actually earn?

It seems to be an argument floated frequently by those who support SEVs, and yet there seems to be no official information about the profession's gross and net salary medians and averages, as you would expect for, say, engineers or croupiers.

This article previously in the Guardian suggests a precarious income, but could be wrong I suppose. There seems to be so little real data for lap dancers as a profession.

The clubs seem to do well out of it, though.

Digerd, just a quick point related to your recent post. People can become sexually aroused in all sorts of situations. That doesn't mean they will necessarily go out and coerce or force another person to perform a sexual act or engage in a sexual act with them as a result.

However, if a person is conditioned and on the receiving end of continual messages in popular culture, from peers and in society in general, that says they are entitled to use other people to fulfil their "wants and needs" (including sexual ones,) then they are less likely to feel qualms about coercing or even forcing another person to "give" them what they believe is rightly theirs to have.

The environment within a strip club is predicated on conveying the idea that women exist to be appealing to men, to please them, to defer to them, to serve them and that women's own needs and wants aren't important. No, further than that - that women's own needs and wants are fulfilled through servicing men, sexually and otherwise.

It's of course not the only message that men receive pointing to this, but it is one of the most overt and explicit examples. It serves to reinforce and justify the concept of women as sexual objects, that their personal boundaries are completely permeable and that they are in a perpetual state of sexual consent.

I think that in itself is a problem.

PosieParker Mon 29-Oct-12 13:13:47
Now am hiding the thread.

That's right, go back under your rock now that your stats have been shown to be inaccurate.

Frans that was uncalled for, we are all at liberty to stop posting whenever we wish on a thread.

Kritiq, great post.

Thanks Doctrine and yes, folks can come and go as they wish here, surely!

One of my other concerns is the "group think" that can happen when a group of people together will do and/or support other group members in doing things that they would be unlikely to consider if they were on their own or were just with 1 or maybe 2 other people.

Men tend to go to strip clubs in groups - stag nights, work parties, mens' nights out, that sort of thing. They tend to drink alot of alcohol and sometimes take drugs.

I've spoken to men who have said that they felt bullied and were even threatened with violence during such outings if they refused to go along with what the group was doing. This could happen, for example, when they said they didn't want to go into a strip club or if they didn't want to pay for private dances or for sex. It could also happen if they objected to the way other men in the group were treating women in the street or in nightclubs afterwards, including sexual assaults.

There is immense pressure to conform to a very sexist "ideal" of masculinity in outings like this - one that sexually objectifies and demeans women as a class. A whole industry has grown up with the purpose of making men feel good about objectifying and demeaning women, and paying lots of money for that good feeling. It's not like they are going to watch demonstrations of flower arranging.

Rosa okay saying people agree with me doesn't make it a valid argument I was just trying to point out that many people may feel you are misguided. Many people may be disinterested. A discussion board on MN in reality will have little impact on the world anyway. I only really got involved as people were making claims about violence at the outset and everything I read seemed to point against it. I got annoyed with Posie as she refused initially to accept her quotes were based on inaccurate data.

LineRunner as to money it is from what I gather how much work a dancer wants to put in. Certainly a five day week is worth over £1000 to my neighbour. And the fringe benefits like claiming all your shoes and undies as tax deductible seems a little [hshock]

I don't feel that another women being desirable demeans me, but I am of the age objectification is a long way behind me. There are so many more things in life that really demean women like FGM, religion and needing women only shortlists as we are obviously not good enough to get the job on our own skills and a abilities. Those are the ones that really bug me. I would say with religion if a woman chooses to accept the practices I don't dislike her choice if it is hers it is more about the overall issue that women have to be subservient. I feel that with the club if it is a dancer's choice I shouldn't be making decisions for her as an intelligent woman.

Sausage - the argument you are making about "there being more important things" is a tiresome cliche. We can be concerned about several things at once.

The fact is this: Stories about lap dancers making money so it's a-ok are one tactic to boost the acceptability of the sex industry.

The sex industry is powerful and seeking ever more profit.

Of course they want you to think that lap dancing clubs, "safe massage parlours" and the ilk are a wonderful thing, it makes more money for them.

Lessening the stigma of seeing, a stripper, watching porn, using a prostitute means that more men will do these activities and the means...

More money for the sex industry.

Now to the big question.

Do you think a society where visiting a lap dancing club is a weekly occurence, where it's perfectly acceptable to have business meetings there, where seeing a prostitute is like ordering a takeaway and the whole idea that paying a women to sexually service you is fine and normal,

• do you think a society like this is a place where women will be respected, where women will be able to achieve equality?

I don't.

I was wondering if there is income data on lap dancers in general, as a profession, from HMRC or ONS.

It's just that when journalists investigate they never seem to find evidence that anyone really nets fabulous sums of money.

However, if a person is conditioned and on the receiving end of continual messages in popular culture, from peers and in society in general, that says they are entitled to use other people to fulfil their "wants and needs" (including sexual ones,) then they are less likely to feel qualms about coercing or even forcing another person to "give" them what they believe is rightly theirs to have.

but that's just assumes that people are of low intellect and can't think for themselves. Just because some people want to get their kit off for example, doesn't mean it becomes expected from everyone. I would hope that most people are able to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

I've spoken to men who have said that they felt bullied and were even threatened with violence during such outings if they refused to go along with what the group was doing. This could happen, for example, when they said they didn't want to go into a strip club or if they didn't want to pay for private dances or for sex. It could also happen if they objected to the way other men in the group were treating women in the street or in nightclubs afterwards, including sexual assaults.

that sounds like an excuse to me, like the kind of thing someone would say to their OH to try and play down the fact that they went to a lap dancing club. 'It weren't my idea darling, it were those nasty mates that forced me to go there'

I know this all too well as some of my mates play down our nights out to their OH's, when in fact it was them who were the ones to suggest going in the first place!

oh and you most certainly can't have sex in a lap dancing club, there's no touching for starters. Nightclub are a different matter, as people do it in the toilets. Binge drinking isn't permitted in lap dancing clubs either and if you get too drunk you'll be kindly asked to leave.

Do you think a society where visiting a lap dancing club is a weekly occurence, where it's perfectly acceptable to have business meetings there, where seeing a prostitute is like ordering a takeaway and the whole idea that paying a women to sexually service you is fine and normal,

do you think a society like this is a place where women will be respected, where women will be able to achieve equality?

Leaving aside the hyperbole and assumptions about what is "normal" (lapdancing clubs only exist as one activity among many in society, and the vast majority of men certainly don't view seeing a prostitute as "like ordering a takeaway") - one question immediately springs to mind:

Why is it then that women have so much more equality in the countries where lapdancing clubs and the like are relatively open (ie western liberal democracies), than they do in the countries where they're banned?

Nope Dad Dancer, it's nowt to do with intellect.

Companies spend millions marketing messages to people to get them to consume their product or service. They don't just target people of "low intellect" who are unable to "think for themselves." The messages DO get through or companies wouldn't invest so much in marketing and advertising. The pounds invested translate into people buying this aftershave or that brand of trainer, going to this insurance company or that bank. Are you suggesting then that men are uniquely immune to those other cultural and media messages that sexualise and objectify women? That they can purchase the sexual services of some women but this will have absolutely no impact on the way they regard all other women in society. Really?

Maybe it sounds like an excuse to you, but even if it is, that would be an excellent example of group think in action - that they would do something exploitative, abusive and demeaning of women when in a group, when they have to behave in a certain way to be accepted, but later try and weasel out of responsibility for what they have been involved in.

However, one of the examples I was thinking of was the husband of a colleague. His brother and friends knew he did not agree with strip clubs and he thinks they deliberately decided to go to one on a night out to put one over on him. They taunted him that he must be gay. Then tried the, "you're under her thumb," alongside the, "it's just a bit of fun, relax, you'll like it." When he still refused, one of the men became aggressive and accused him of wanting to tell tales to their wives. He walked off, walked home and hasn't had anything to do with any of them since - yes, including his brother. He felt especially betrayed by him, but also let down by guys he thought were real mates.

Just wanted to finish this bit, but have no intention of engaging with you further Dad Dancer. You continue to assert your male privilege, have no interest in any views that do not confirm your entitlement to sexual services from women, so I'd prefer to be using my time doing something more productive.

Toodle pip.

Fast Loris - oh yes, Iceland is such a repressive country.

And I'm sure that the freedom to have lapdancing clubs is top of the list of things they're fighting for in Syria right now.

FFS, this canard that freedom = the heterosexual male gaze being endlessly catered to and privileged needs to die in a fire.

Male owned sexuality that objectfies and dominates women is not a liberated sexuality for women.

But it may be that allowing the free expression of all forms of sexuality, including the ones you don't like (subject only to the usual legal principle of disallowing acts that are directly harmful to others), is the most likely way to achieve freedom for the ones you do like.

Just nipping in to give a double thumbs up to GothAnne's last post.

Male owned sexuality that objectifies and dominates women is not a liberated sexuality for women

Needs to be on a poster, on tee shirts, on the front cover of every PSHE / PSE text book.

Fast Loris - I do not believe that sex is a commodity to be bought or sold. I do not feel that any freedom can result from objectification.

How can being viewed as less than human make you freer?

I understand you're arguing from an anti-censorship viewpoint, but saying men shouldn't be allowed or encouraged to treat/view women as fuck-toys, is not censorship, IMHO.

KRITIQ - thanks

Well it clearly is, but the question is whether it's justified censorship. I'm not actually opposed to all censorship automatically; I just think a historical look at different social systems says there's more to be said for letting people work out their own ways of doing things than trying to impose a single ideology from above - however well-meaning the latter may be. OTOH I hadn't really thought about Iceland and that's a different story because it's the first time stripping has been banned for feminist rather than religious/puritanical reasons. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

I saw a reference to Portsmouth in the thread earlier and its council website apparently shows that despite the consultation response the Licensing Committee chose to adopt a starting position of 'No' to any more SEVs.

The feminist section is barely distinguishable from punterprats forum these days. Tis very sad.

well fine KRITIQ i can't be bothered to engage with people who continue to use outdated exploitation and objectification arguments based on assumptions and one dimensional views. So you have saved me the trouble.

FastLoris, very true. Sometimes in life we have to accept things that we don't like and respect the views of others. I don't like religion and i could easily argue that it has a negative widespread impact on society, but i am not going to be calling for a 'nil cap' on places of worship. Some people just don't understand the concept of living in a tolerant society.

GothAnneGeddes - regarding Iceland, sounds like it's lost the plot since the financial crisis. Interesting to hear if there is now an underground scene? Also what's with all this being 'viewed as less than human' about? It's not something that happens in lap dancing clubs i can tell you that. You would be booted out the club if you didn't respect the dancers.

LineRunner so much for democracy then!

yup, Sabrina, and that's why many of the original members have fucked off or certainly post here much less frequently than they used to

leave the sex industry promoters to it, it's a losing battle, certainly on MN

Sorry thought these were open forums, didn't realise it was a club for only 'designer feminists' to hang out.

Yeah, I see exactly what you mean, HappyHalloween.

Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits,
that's no true either.

Err it is. In fact i had a choice between working for a sex chatline or workfare.
In fact i posted about it on the Relationships board recently.