Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

In response to GATT, perhaps this is the nub of it.

If you think it's as straight-forward and tangible as Man X leaving LDC Y and objectifying - or not - women (and I'm beginning to guess a lot of people do think this way, what with all the facts and figures being bandied about), then we're never going to progress this debate.

If you think all LCD punters are good enough to leave their oggling (for what else are they doing there, really?) at the door, and then go out into the world and treat all women as utter equals, then again we're never going to progress this debate. Especially since to anyone without blinkers on, and/or a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, it's patently untrue.

I actually alluded to the idea way back in the dawn of time that was the start of this thread, that any piece of research which only surveys current participants in the sex industry, will only give you one shade of the picture; certainly not a whole and accurate one. Again, TheOriginalLady's friend is just one person and we can't draw hard and fast conclusions from one anecdote.

But it is an interesting (and of course from my perspective, having read about ex-workers' experiences, not in the slightest bit surprising) view from someone who's come out the other side.

Nobody is laying the blame for society's objectifcation of women at the door of LDCs in its entirety. They're part of a behemouth of a problem, of which LDCs and SEVs are only one strand, woven into a complex whole.

My question's been ignored or overlooked, but I've asked DadDancer a couple of times now if he's white. The reason for my question is in relation to his vehement denial of the existence and problem of objectification of women.

If you are white, I would like to know if you would deign to go into a predominantly black forum and deny their experiences of racism. If you are black, then I'm surprised you don't have more empathy - since you'd know exactly how it felt to have your experiences denied by someone who has absolutely no concept of those experiences. Of course, some women - as this thread demonstrates - don't have a problem with objectification, as is their right. But plenty of us do. And that's why we're in here, on this thread, on this forum, writing, arguing, questioning, challenging, tweeting, what-have-you. We're not going to go away.

I do have to reiterate that your utter freak-out at the suggestion of your daughter one day lap dancing, was quite an embarrassment for the pro side of the thread. You could almost feel everyone willing you to calm down and not fall into the 'trap'. The point isn't just that all LDers are someone's daughter, but more to get people's visceral reactions to the idea of someone they love being in that position, and if that gut reaction is one of deep discomfort, to examine why that might be. Dress it up as, 'if you'd asked if I had a daughter who is over 18, who...' as much as you like, the response was way too telling. Either the idea of l/dancing is palatable or it's not, surely? Why does it have to asked in a certain way?

As an aside, where is this assumption that anyone against LDCs must be a man, coming from? I haven't seen anyone from this side of the debate say that...? Sausage also seemed to think that the anti side had assumed Tittydancer was a man - again, I have no idea where this comes from. No-one has suggested that. Interesting to me, that it's the pro side seeing this when it isn't even there. Paranoid?!

Somerset:

I asked you question a few posts back now, DadDancer, but I'm guessing you missed it. Are you white?

Please tell what the colour of my skin has got to do with a debate on lap dancing clubs? i've gotta hear this.....

Great post, Somerset.

sorry Somerset just seen your post which answers my previous one. Just knew it were going to be something along those lines

Careful - you're incur the wrath of JoTheHot for not getting the analogy. Although I suspect she(?) conserves her wrath for the burks on my side of the argument, rather than yours. I suspect she'd let it slide in your case.

It's an annoying point and question, isn't it?

Because I'm guessing - unless you're a buffoon in extremis - that you probably wouldn't go into a predominantly black forum and deny their experiences. You'd be daft to assume you knew better. You're happy to do it now, though. You know better than us what it's like to be a woman, right?

TheOriginalLadyFT - thanks for posting that - it does support the criticisms of the Leeds Report in that women currently working are more likely to put a positive skew on the job, than ex-dancers.

Sausage - yes of course I feel free to comment on your personal situation if you choose to post such details on a chat forum.

Somerset - great post.

Daddancer - all your posts are very telling on this forum. Firstly, the smug admittance that you go to LDCs, but that you're not doing anything wrong or damaging to women. Secondly, the uproar that 'we personally attacked your family' and outright anger about a hypothetical question about your daughter. Lastly, calling feminists 'prudish' as you did last night. It's full circle really.

Daddancer has to deny womens' bad experiences of lapdancing - otherwise he might have to face up to the fact that going to lap dance clubs is sleazy and abusive. And then he might have to stop going...

Nothing must get in the way of his little hobby, so it's deny, deny, deny.

I do have to reiterate that your utter freak-out at the suggestion of your daughter one day lap dancing, was quite an embarrassment for the pro side of the thread. You could almost feel everyone willing you to calm down and not fall into the 'trap'. The point isn't just that all LDers are someone's daughter, but more to get people's visceral reactions to the idea of someone they love being in that position, and if that gut reaction is one of deep discomfort, to examine why that might be. Dress it up as, 'if you'd asked if I had a daughter who is over 18, who...' as much as you like, the response was way too telling. Either the idea of l/dancing is palatable or it's not, surely? Why does it have to asked in a certain way?

No your still trying to twist it around into something that it wasn't. It was a blatant insult and piss take and it was actually the incest bit that really wound me up. and 'Utter freak out', please don't be so melodramatic. As i said previously not many dads want to think of their girls in a sexual way, it's an in built mechanism. If it's lap dancing, having sex with their boyfriend/ one night stands, getting their kit off in a mag, dressing sexily for a night out etc. This is no argument to use against LDC's otherwise we would have to ban sexuality full stop as every woman is somebody's daughter. What about the daughter who go off having one night stands every week, should we ban nightclubs to stop men from exploiting them as you would put it? That has got be far worse than dancing naked, surely?

On a positive note at least there is actually some civilized debate going on now in this thread now, earlier on was quite ridiculous

It wasn't me being melodramatic. 'Twas you.

We're not talking about normal, human sexuality. This has been covered before. We femi-nazis - amazingly - actually have no problem with people being attracted to each other and having sex. I know - right?

No-one in their right mind has an issue with this. And you fully realise this - you're just being disingenuous.

My point, since I have to make it again, was to get you to look at your initial freak-out reaction (and freak out you did - it's there in black and white for us all to see) and examine that. You know in your heart of hearts that you'd hate for your daughter to be in the situation that Lady's friend was in. You know full well the sort of opinion that many, many men (not you, natch ) have of women who work in sex industry. It's absolutely a job for 'other' women; not for anyone they know and love.

Deny it all you want, I afraid it's too difficult to believe anything you say to the contrary after all you've posted so far.

TheOriginalLadyFT -

"My friend said this: "ask the men on that thread sticking up for lap dancing if they would be happy to see their daughter do it. They won't admit it, but what they'll be thinking is 'you must be fucking joking, she's a nice girl' ie not a whore like the dancers."

So hang on, let me get this straight: Your friend said to ask them, but to then disregard their answers because they will obviously be lying, and she knows what they really think anyway?

No Sabrina where did i call feminists prudish? i called some local residents prudish, because of what they said in their responses, which had nothing to with feminism. You are very quick to jump to conclusions, it seems to be a trend amongst objectors.

and my hobby you say, I think I already stated that i only go on the odd occasion like stag do or birthday party. So not much of a hobby is it. Not that i have anything against the regulars though.

and maybe Sabrina you should face up to the fact that yours is a minority view and that you don't speak for all women. I respect your view to say you don't like LDCS, fine no problem with that, but where you fall down is when you try and control people, impose your morals onto them and ultimately call to ban things.
I haven't denied anyone's bad experiences of LDC's either, i even posted a link with some negatives from a lap dancer. Trouble is a lot of people objecting here haven't even set foot in a lap dancing club, and they just keep making assumptions, instead of making a judgement for themselves.

so it's assumption, assumption, assumption. sorry couldn't resist that one!

We're not talking about normal, human sexuality.
and what's that when it's at home? Who defines what 'normal' is these days?

I thought we were supposed to be living in an age sexual diversity, so does voyeurism and exhibitionism not factor into that? or Is it everything goes except for people who want to take their clothes off and people who want to watch. Do you consider them to be sinners who should be ashamed of their actions? and is this not just another phobia?

Daddancer the reason you have been asked the colour of your skin is to ascertain whether you have ever been the subject of discrimination.

If you are a white male then you won't have experienced of being born already at a disadvantage in our society.

I don't know why you are defending LDCs so vehemently here. Why don't you take all your clothes off and writhe round a pole in front of a load of women (or gays) who are commenting on your body in a sexual way? And keep smiling and pretending it turns you on? And take a minimum wage for doing so?

Daddancer - if you don't deny the bad experiences of women, how do you justify going to LDCs? Are they just the collateral damage to your little hobby?

I'm not making any assumptions - I've used the figures provided by the Leeds report. (which, could, arguably be an understatement).

Daddancer you get round the question of asking if you would be comfortable with your daughter lapdancing by answering that no fathers like to think of their daughters partaking in any sexual activity. Thin about what this might say about your attitudes to women and sexuality, ie the women a man loves or who are special to him must not be involved in sex because sex is somehow "wrong" for women. Do you think you would be able to think more comfortably of your son partaking in any sexual activities? I suspect so. Also, in many of your posts you claim that "most women" or "most men" think this or that quite often. I think you should be more open to the possibility that you do not know what most people will think, this in turn may open you to the possibility that some of your views may be wrong. I would certainly dispute your idea that "most fathers" are uncomfortable with the idea of their daughters having a sex life.

But, going with your argument for a minute, I have a son and I am uncomfortable with thinking of him, when he is older, as being aggressive or acting violently. I also don't want him to put himself in situations where he may get hurt by the violence of others. However, many young men have to experience this when they join the army. By your argument that it is all right for lapdancing clubs to exist because, although you can't think of your daughter in relation to sex, every woman is someone's daughter so it's all right for everyone else's daughters to provide this service, then could I argue well it's all right for my son not to have to join the army but OK for me to support the army and the war in Afghanistan in general and let everyone else's sons go off to fight? I don't think so.

Fast loris - you can hardly blame my friend for believing that most men either won't admit to their true feelings or lie; after all, the vast majority of the punters in these clubs lie to their partners/wives about going there. And that's even before you get to the types that come on forums and argue until they are blue in the face that they 'totally like love and respect these women, yeah?' when actually in their heart they know fine well that they are objectifying women and paying for their degradation.

I see daddancer has still not actually answered the question about his daughter dancing in a titty bar. Quelle surprise

No, my friend is not a man - she is a woman that I remember as a funny, bright little girl and later a hard working, out going student with lots of friends of both genders. She now views men with distrust and struggles with depression and anger. She finds it very difficult to believe men she meets in every day life value her for anything other than her sexuality. It is really, really sad

Daddancer, you just don't know when to stop digging that hole do you?
Are you really so dense that you think we equate an experience based on mutual attraction/lust (a one night stand) with the inequality and one sided nature of a paid for sexual transaction?
No one is being exploited by a one night stand, your comments are far more telling about your views on women and sexuality than you realise.

*In response to GATT, perhaps this is the nub of it.

If you think it's as straight-forward and tangible as Man X leaving LDC Y and objectifying - or not - women .......then we're never going to progress this debate.

If you think all LCD punters are good enough to leave their ogling......at the door, and then go out into the world and treat all women as utter equals, then again we're never going to progress this debate.*

Somerset

And of course the third natural scenario in that family that you've not listed whist suggesting I'm not progressing the debate.. is... 'if you think all punters that enter LDC 'Y' objectify women then........... we're never going to progress this debate.

Which is essentially your position.

There is an all prevailing opinion from those who favour a ban, that if you're not backing a banning you must by default think of women as whores, as lesser, and that if you visit these clubs you are a wanker, a prick, a low life, a misogynistic self entitled sub-human and that simply banning LDCs will solve the problem.

You see I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's far more complicated. I also think that reducing the punters to misogynistic cardboard cut outs, and removing any responsibility at all for intelligent women freely contributing to all this............... doesn't progress the debate.

The clubs are objectifying women, therefore any man that goes in a LDC is condoning that objectification.

You're not acknowledging the real harm to real women in the clubs, GetAll. The intelligent women contributing to this industry (as you argue) then state that negatives from working there include 'losing all their faith in men' and 'abusive customers.' If a man goes into those clubs, he's condoning this.

GetAll, when you try to find the women as equally culpable in the normalisation of lap dancing culture as men, you are failing to account for the fact that we are all living in an already sexist society. All women have been brought up in a society that, still, to some extent hints that women are the 'sex class' or the 'domestic class'.

How unequal society is still for women is debatable - sure, we've got the vote now, we've got the anti-discrimination and equal pay acts. Yet, somehow women, on average, still get paid less than men. They still tend to do the child rearing and part time/low paid work. There are still only a handful of women in the higher echelons of our government. There is still only a tiny proportion of women in Boardrooms. Women have a way to go before we have true equality in society.

How much equality we've already achieved seems to change on these MN threads, depending on the angle of the argument. I've been told on threads about 'feminism' that the 'war is won, we've got the vote, we've got equality, what are you all still moaning about, blah blah.' But then recently, on a thread about prostitution, I was told by a punter and by a prostitute that 'we're living in a sexist society, I can't see that changing' as a justification for prostitution.

The woman being paid to take her clothes off in a club is already at a disadvantage in society, just because she's a woman. Add to that the constant barrage of sexual objectification of women in the media, page 3, porn, women being deemed worthless if they are unattractive to men (take the Mary Beard debacle) and then you've got your answer as to why women may look for jobs in the sex industry. It was described by TittyDancer as 'if you can't beat them, join them.'

Therefore, I will absolutely not hold the women working in these clubs, as equally culpable as the club owners, (who are overwhelmingly male, and cashing in on the exploitation of women), or the men that go and flash their cash in these clubs.

running

If you feel that the current state of equality in the UK in 2012 is such that it removes all possible responsibility from all women contributing towards objectification for profit I simply cant agree. I guess we're not going to get anywhere on that.

I agree with what Grimble said

Equality means taking personal responsibility for your actions if you have the intellectual and emotional capacity to do so

Can you point out where running says 'it removes all possible responsibility from the women' ?

She said they are not 'equally culpable'.

I don't know why you are defending LDCs so vehemently here. Why don't you take all your clothes off and writhe round a pole in front of a load of women (or gays) who are commenting on your body in a sexual way? And keep smiling and pretending it turns you on? And take a minimum wage for doing so?

Doesn't sound too bad to me. The question is would they want to see me doing that? I don't think i'd look too graceful trying to pull different moves off on the pole.

Sabrina . Running, you and Somerset has been making the point repeatedly that you will not hold the dancers in LDCs responsible in any way through out the thread because of reasons X,Y and Z.

I can't point out where she said 'it removes all possible responsibility from the women' , because I wasn't directly quoting her.

You see in debates you can take the opinion someone has given and refer to it. Sometimes one directly quotes with the use of speech marks ( which indicate it is a direct quote ) other times you can paraphrase said opinions.

If she's now of the opinion that they're just 'not as culpable' as the men it's a different stance and I'd be interested in hearing why she's changed her position and where she feels women are culpable in the objectification of women as a whole in society......