Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Encouraging members to write to object to something is not the same as what you claimed, sausage - you claimed that the women made up stories of sexual assault.

Encouraging women to come forward with stories of sexual harrassment outside existing lap dancing clubs is not the same as asking them to make them up.

You're accusing women of making up stories of sexual assault here.

Sausage, just because Stripping the Illusion found a suggested template letter on a closed form on Object, with suggested wording (saying amend as applicable) about being sexually harrassed outside the clubs, does not mean that all the women talking of being harrassed outside clubs are making it up.

That should be obvious even to you.

I'm just loving the peekaboo dance pole.

Harmless fun?

Actually Sabrina the only people Object even mentioned harassment to was it's closed user group. The template letter they put out to the public made no mention of harassment. Yet the template given to the activists did. Why only even mention it to the activists and not the general public? Why were they no complaints registered with the police?

More importantly why do object use a report that was so flawed it was easily torn apart? If the data was good it couldn't have been made a mockery of, but the data wasn't good, wasn't researched properly so could be shown as a useless waste of energy. Sorry Object lie and I believe they encourage their activists to lie. You don't have to believe it Sabrina what most people will do is wonder why even 3 years after the report was shown to be flawed groups use it as a key point to try and close LDCs? It plays right into the hands of the owners of the LDCs and weakens any position when someone quotes it.

Ok going to try and drop this (again) and if the fairy tales come back will try to ignore them.

So - you can hardly claim that all the reports were made up then? Why were no complaints made to the police? What a naive question - the vast majority of sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Women don't generally report sexual harrassment on the streets to the police - I know I never have.

I believe that lots of people lie - including the people that own lap dancing clubs. Like the Spearmint Rhino club that had a 15 year old working there?

Lilith is not the only research available - Lilith was only studying Camden. I'm not a member of Object, and I'm not here to be their spokesperson. I have my own objections to LDCs - and they do not stand or fall on whether crime statistics rise or fall when a LDC opens.

I wonder why Avon & Somerset Police were opposed to the new LDC opening in Exeter?

I suppose they are all raving feminists or liars too.

GetALl - you were the one that brought up your 3yr old dressing up as a princess, on a lap dancing thread, not me.

You asked me a question that referenced my daughter. Usually when that happens in a debate the person answering may well refer to that which is being referenced. In this case my daughter and the influence of objectification.

With the suggestion that as I put lap dancing down the list of evils in my dd's life I therefore turn a blind eye to objectification as a whole.

What I didn't do is say dressing as a princess at age 3 is on a par with lap dancing culture. That is what you said.

I was talking about lap dancing culture and the effect on our daughters (I have a young daughter too) - and you started talking about other negative influences, and mentioned her dressing up as a princess. Why did you bring it up then?

runningforthebusinheels

Sarcasm lost on you was it Daddancer?

yeah i knew you were being sarcastic, I was just being cheeky

^The Leeds study again: 40.1% of dancers report that customers are rude or abusive to them. 30.7% report that they have lost respect for men.

Daddancer - are you proud to be part of that? Proud to be part of the reason that dancers have lost their faith in men?" ^

Oh right so the Leeds study is a valid now? Earlier on in this thread objectors were more or less saying it wasn?t worth the paper it was written on and now you want to cherry pick the negative parts and argue them against me. Even though i have never once used the Leeds study to back up any of my arguments.

No I am not 'part of that' because I don?t insult the dancers. I respect them.
And remember it?s not 40% of all customers are abusive to the dancers, it?s 40% of the dancers have experienced some abusive behaviour, so that could just be a few idiots, which you get in all walks of life. I have never seen any trouble at any of the clubs I have been to or persons being rude to the staff or dancers, although I have seen people turned away for being too drunk at the door.
And the 30.7% is that for 'all men' or 'some men'? Either way at least 70% haven't lost repect.

Of course you're part of it Daddancer - you go to these clubs.

Nobody has cherry picked parts of the Leeds study to suit their arguments, or said it is invalid - it has been criticised for only interviewing current dancers - so therefore doesn't take account of the dancers that have left the business. Ex dancers may well display more negative responses to the questions.

Btw, it doesn't say that only 40% of dancers have experienced abusive behaviour, it says that 40% cite it as a negative about the job. Very different things.

Anyway, yes, you take comfort in the fact that 69.3% of the dancers you come into contact with haven't had their faith in men destroyed. Never mind the 30.7%.

Just remember that a third of the women that are dancing for you in these clubs have lost all respect for men, purely due to working there.

Could one of you pro- lap dance posters please answer somerset's question? She's posted the minor sexual assaults thread up here twice now - did anyone actually look at it? The huge majority of women have suffered some manner of sexual assaults - with many never telling a soul about it.

yeah i have read the thread, and it's sad to hear the testimonials on there, however for reasons i have said before you can't go blaming LDC's as part of the cause (FastLoris has written a excellent piece above which explains this well and also Sausage wrote a response back ages ago to this which I totally agreed with) .
It's the same as trying to blame violent video games or video nasties (to quote Mary Whitehouse) for people committing crimes. It all reverts back to this nanny state mentality where people are assumed that they can't be trusted so the state needs to control them.

I was talking about lap dancing culture and the effect on our daughters (I have a young daughter too)

No you weren't. I posted about why I don't see LDCs as the biggest issue in terms of objectification, that there are bigger fish, which you then interpret as...

GetAll - so women (including your daughter ) need to just get used to sexual objectification - because it's not going away. No point at all in fighting it?

At no point have I said women just need to get used to it ( objectification ) or that there is no point in fighting it ( objectification ) . That's you putting words in my mouth.

And in order to answer your question, as you're assuming I see no point in fighting objectification, I need to mention an areas which I feel are more corrosive and pervasive, where I do feel there is a point in fighting it ( objectification ).

What I do try and challenge ( as an example ) is the type of 'Disney dress' culture my daughter is exposed to. I have far more concern over that than LDCs.

I mention Disney dresses ( and all that goes with them ) as ( a ) it's an issue with my dd ( as you mentioned her ) that I'm trying to challenge, and ( b ) they are fairly symbolic ( a metaphor ) of the type of objectification many three year old girls are exposed to.

Do I really need to explain to you why things like Disney dresses and the culture and messages that go with them are damaging ? Really ?!

Running there was already 2 clubs existing in Exeter and they have had problems with one as it is located on the top floor of a night club (not sure which bright spark thought that up). The council is settling on one club being the total number clubs they will have in the area. Therefore an additional club would not be allowed.

As I said I am for the dancers and want properly run clubs, if a club is not properly run then it should close. But I can't see the point of closing all clubs because a handful are mismanaged.

So you do admit there are problems in the clubs then, sausage? Can there ever be 'properly run' clubs by men happy to profit from selling womens' bodies as titillation for men? I'm not so sure.

How about the problems wider problems of sexual objectification of women that aren't addressed by properly run clubs? Punters like Daddancer can put his fingers in his ears and bury his head in the sand all he likes - but problems for all women arise from these clubs - not just the ones who work there.

What you are essentially talking about here is a trade in women's bodies. This is not remotely comparable to someone serving you a round of drinks, cutting your hair or serving you in a shop. The woman's body is the commodity - you can pay her £20 to wiggle her boobs at you. And you seriously think that all punters coming out of these clubs say 'ok lads, we're out of the club now. Time to treat women as humans again'?

Women who have experienced abuse and harassment outside these clubs are not all liars.

Daddancer - violent video games now? Ok, you might want to read some of Dr Tanya Byrons research on that.

GetAll - you worry about disney dresses then - why not start a separate thread about it if it's of concern to you?

But, yes, I was talking about the effect of lapdancing clubs on objectification of women, the culture our daughters are growing up in, and how harmful I believe they are. I agree that there are a multitude of negative influences on children - but one of the most powerful is the increased sexualisation of children - MN is campaigning against that at the moment. Here, I will again draw your attention to the toy pole dancing kit aimed at children, I kinked to earlier. Teaching girls how desirable it is to make money from stripping from an early age Somehow I don't think disney princesses are quite comparable - but thanks for your input.

I don't think disney princesses are quite comparable - but thanks for your input.

Ah yes, because children's pole dance kits are like waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more prevalent and pervasive in society and the lives of children than, um say, the billion dollar Disney machine that has touched virtually every cinema, TV set and toy shop in the western world.

GetAll - you worry about disney dresses then - why not start a separate thread about it if it's of concern to you

I'm just answering your constant questioning about why I mentioned Disney dresses Sabrina as you're having trouble understanding why I mentioned it. If you stop asking me about it I might stop mentioning it in answering you.

Running you haven't really read what I have said about objectification, if you ignore my point of view then I don't see the point of answering questions referring to it. Any business can be run well or run badly, but if the councils push for nil policies when they lose in court (and can you really see a council beating these clubs?) they will lose control. Its a shame that people can't get their head around the concept because the only winners in the long run will be the club owners.

I was also interested to find out today that when Object was set up it was to help the dancers amongst other things and only over the last 6 years has it's mission statement changed to closing all the clubs.

Poledancing kits for kids exist, GetAll. That's bad enough.

I still don't understand what potential court cases you are referring to, Sausage. Are you able to elaborate? I'm very interested in your thoughts on this.

Sausage - no I don't agree with what you said about sexual objectification. Can you tell?

What's more - I'm not even sure Nussbaum would agree with you? She wrote that the objectification in pornography is negative.

The club owners are the only winners now imo. Nobody needs lap dancing clubs.

Sausage: 'I was also interested to find out today that when Object was set up it was to help the dancers amongst other things and only over the last 6 years has it's mission statement changed to closing all the clubs."

Good.

"Nobody needs lap dancing clubs."

Noone needs chocolate either. Shall we ban chocolate?

No, chocolate can stay.

Not sure chocolate is a true and equal comparison to lap dancing clubs.