Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Sabrina, why are you surprised that someone chooses to criticise one side of this discussion and not the other? Almost everybody here has an entrenched position whereby they wish to heap all the blame onto one party and totally exonerate the other.

Life isn't like that. This is a complex situation. The sooner people take off their political blinkers on all sides and see that there is blame across the board the better. Otherwise, proper discussion becomes impossible.

Daddancer- how many people have to tell you that it's not about whether one dancer posts that she's happy. Its about the sexual objectification of women.

Could one of you pro- lap dance posters please answer somerset's question? She's posted the minor sexual assaults thread up here twice now - did anyone actually look at it? The huge majority of women have suffered some manner of sexual assaults - with many never telling a soul about it.

Think about what causes mens' mindsets to think it's ok to sexually assault a woman- to grab her tits or arse in a nightclub, to force themselves onto her when she doesn't want it.

It is the mindset that is caused by the objectification of women- that women are just 'things' to be bought- just pretty background in a club, just something to buy a sexual dance from. LDCs along with the rest of the sex industry all feed into that.

Can you not see the link

I am not saying that there is no link between LDC's (or rather the culture that allows them) and low level sexual assault. I have not read it, although it is usually easier to prove correlation rather than causation.

One thing that confuses me though about the linkage. Aren't there societies where there are no LDC's, such as India and the Middle East, where harassment of women is also unacceptably high? Certainly in the ME there are very few women who dress with a lot of flesh on show.

There is no equality in those societies, not even an illusion of equality, namechangeguy. Women are seen as the property of men - firstly her father then her husband - therefore of course they can be abused.

Sabrina you are saying that the men who go to LDCs cannot control their emotions and will grab women when they come out of the clubs, any sexual crime is classified as violence and there is research out there. Just because it has been done by a person who is pro clubs does not invalidate it as it is easily checkable. I think you would find there is more of a correlation to "normal night clubs" than LDCs.

As for my criticising Object finances one person suggested that the clubs are paying reporters and Object wasn't making people money. I pointed out that the projects Object got funding for have never got past the concept stage which begs the question where did the £000s' of grant money go? Does Anna the CEO speak for free on TV and forums? I don't know and would be interested if anyone does know. Point being is there is a lot of money given to object someone must have made something out of it as the projects never materialised (as far as I can find).

I accept the clubs have lots of money which is why I think the moment it gets to European courts a club will win the first case and every council will drop nil policies rather rather than face massive court bills. The downside the dancers still don't get better protection. The key should be how do we make a better, safer environment for the dancers not how do we make things worse.

No - that is absolutely the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm looking at the bigger picture - I'm not saying individual men come out of clubs and assault women outside (although they may well do!).

I'm saying that the whole social acceptability of having clubs where women can be paid to stand around half naked, dance suggestively for a tenner etc feeds into the whole sexual objectification of women in wider society - that it is ok for men to grab a woman's arse in a nightclub, to rape a woman because you bought her drinks and dinner etc etc - after all, that's what women are for, they all love it don't they?

Oh, and I'd rather concentrate on a better environment for ALL women in society - not just the few lap dancers.

Sabrina,

For me I agree that LDCs are going to contribute towards objectification. I'm not sure how much they do in the general scheme of things, but to a lesser or greater degree yes to that.

There are other aspects of life that I'm far more concerned about in terms of my daughter's future, but I'd agree that just because one sees greater issues doesn't mean smaller ones shouldn't be dealt with of course.

The idea that sexual assaults go down around LDCs is a surprising aspect as it's usually the opposite claim that's brought out to show how damaging LDCs are.

I've been sexually assaulted by men in the past, but I don't feel I can attribute any blame in LDCs for that.

All that aside, where we differ in opinion mostly ( perhaps ) is on the demand / supply argument and why LDCs exist. I don't believe it's all purely down to and solvable by men's sense of entitlement and it's eradication there of.

I'm of the opinion that there are women who take their clothes off, freely like Titty, or objectify themselves in some other way and the men who indulge in it for gratification.

I'm quite uncomfortable with the idea that both parties be punished. Or any parties.

I'd be far more in favour of improving the working conditions.

I can see what you are getting at, Sabrina, but there is a massive difference. You are suggesting that a legal transaction can lead to an illegal assault. I find a fault in your logic directly linking one to the other, because as I said earlier, these assaults happen in cultures where there is no saucy jiggling. So perhaps if you stop the LD's, men would carry on doing it anyway. In which case, all you have done is closed a legitimate industry and put women out of work.

GetAll - you acknowledge that LDCs contribute to overall sexual objectification of all women. Can you please explain why then, you think that improving working conditions of the dancers is the answer?

How will improved working conditions alter the fact that sexual objectification of all women is happening?

GATT this is the key for me better working conditions and better protection for the dancers. This has been the stand point from the beginning with Leeds. Unionisation failed in America but their is a completely different culture to the UK and unions working with dancers is in my own opinion is the best future. If the clubs are forced into European Court and with the current UK licensing law saying clubs can't be closed on moral grounds I just see a council losing and spending a lot of council tax payer money in the process. One council loses and I cannot see another stepping up whilst if one club lost I can see another and another going to court and learning from the process till they win. Better we avoid courts and keep some power with the councils than have all councils running scared of LDCs.

Namechangeguy- a legal transaction can't result in an illegal assault? Really? Your naivity is touching- but how on earth can you know that??

Sabrina, I can no more prove it one way or the other than you can. That was my point, not that it definitely does or does not happen. I am saying that there is room for doubt. Do you accept this or deny it?

My logic is that these assaults occur in cultures whether or not there are LDC's, so perhaps they do not contribute to the problem.

GetAll - you acknowledge that LDCs contribute to overall sexual objectification of all women. Can you please explain why then, you think that improving working conditions of the dancers is the answer?

Because I don't believe they're going away, only underground if you ban it which of course is bad news for the dancers.

GetAll - so women (including your daughter) need to just get used to sexual objectification - because it's not going away. No point at all in fighting it?

namechangeguy - are you denying it could happen? Is there no way in the realms of your consciousness that a man could assault a woman after being in a LDC?

How many sexual assaults outside these places is OK in your book? If no sexual assaults outside happened - is that a justification for them? Or is the sexual objectification of women too high a price?

Sabrina, I don't think you are reading me correctly. I will try one more time;

1. Sexual assault could happen outside an LDC.
2. It could also happen outside a pub or nighclub, a chip shop or a racecourse.
3. One is too many.
4. We cannot prove that they occur because of the existence of 'LDC culture' beyond reasonable doubt.
5. point 4 is true because assaults occur in cultures with no LDC's (and no mainstream porn).

Is this justification for 'LDC culture' (i.e. a society where they are allowed to exist)? I don't know. I find them a bit discomforting on some vague personal level, but just because they affect my sensibilities shouldn't mean necessarily banning them. I get the impression that a lot of the objections in here are at this slightly vague personal sensibilities level too.

In short, I have not seen a feminist argument for banning LDC's other than 'we don't like them, they cause men to look at women funny, and could lead to women being assaulted'. That, for me, is incomplete.

Sausage. So the women that reported sexual assaults outside LDCs - who went and reported these to the public consultation by Coventry Council were making it up??

You say they were making it up because Object told them too??

Riiiiight

Namechangeguy - do you also think that the women who reported sexual assaults outside the LDC in Coventry were making it up?

Can I remind you that women are extremely unlikely to make up stories of sexual assault - they are far more likely not to report them.

Let me rephrase points 1 and 2.

1. Sexual assault can/do happen outside LDC's.
2. It can/does also happen outside a pub or nightclub, a chip shop or a racecourse.

I am not accusing anyone of making it up. I am questioning the causality.

I'm saying that the whole social acceptability of having clubs where women can be paid to stand around half naked, dance suggestively for a tenner etc feeds into the whole sexual objectification of women in wider society - that it is ok for men to grab a woman's arse in a nightclub, to rape a woman because you bought her drinks and dinner etc etc - after all, that's what women are for, they all love it don't they?

So assuming by "feeds into", you mean "has a causative effect on exacerbating" . . .

I don't suppose there's any point in asking, after 28 pages of this claim being repeated over and over again, that someone might provide some evidence for it?

Otherwise, all talk about what "feeds into such and such a culture" is just making up stories to suit whatever chain of cause and effect you want. Which is easy to do can sound very convincing, if you ignore all the assumptions (about the nature of the interaction in the LDC; about how mens' brains work and which experiences cause which actions; etc.) that ensure that your claim is going to confirm the conclusion that you started with anyway.

I could probably come up with a hundred things I don't like about other peoples' actions because of how I perceive they "feed into this or that culture". That's no basis for law or social policy though, unless you're Mao or Pol Pot or someone and trying to unilaterally engineer you ideal society, without needing to justify your feelings about it to anybody.

-LDCs are a contributor to the objectification of women.
-A culture in which women are objectified/othered is not a good thing. For example, this objectification contributes to a culture where minor sexual assaults are acceptable (not just immediately outside the LDC but pervasively)
-Plenty of things are banned or have been discontinued because of a negative impact on wider society or incompatibility with modern perceptions (smoking in the workplace and the Black and White Minstrel Show being examples of the former and the latter)

A culture in which some men pay for women to talk to them in skimpy clothing and then to get naked and spread their legs and gyrate in their faces and this is called light entertainment is just wrong. Wrong enough to be protested, wrong enough to be banned, wrong enough to fall on its arse and die just like the B&W Minstrel Show. It should be so outdated that no-one can believe it still happens. But somehow, it isn't. And I don't know why not.

Yes, it is a sad state of affairs that sexual assaults happen anywhere and everywhere - even sadder that they are most likely to happen in a woman's own home by someone they know and trust.

Do you not think that the sexual objectification of women in society is in some way responsible for that though? That women are the sex class - not someone with rights over their own body, but fuck toys that men can buy? They are just their for male sexual gratification - look men can go along and pay some half naked chick to wiggle for them, or just be part of the background decoration. Do you not think that men with that attitude towards women in LDCs have that attitude to all women?

Daddancer asks how many dancers have to come on here to say that they are happy dancing and do it through choice, before we will listen?

I would like to ask him - how many reports have to show the level of abuse in these clubs before he will listen, and stop going to them.

The Leeds study again: 40.1% of dancers report that customers are rude or abusive to them. 30.7% report that they have lost respect for men.

Daddancer - are you proud to be part of that? Proud to be part of the reason that dancers have lost their faith in men?

Absolutely. I don't like certain people's political views. I think they add to tension and disharmony within society. Not much I can do about it though, and very difficult to prove.

I don't like celebrity culture and reality TV. I think it leads to a dumbing down of society and objectification/worship of talentless, vacuous individuals. This feeds into a wider culture of people wanting to get rich and famous by not doing very much, and therefore a reduction of academic or artistic aspiration that might improve our society and culture. I think this stuff does at least as much harm to young women as the choice of whether to be a lap dancer or not.

But we can't stop it just because I don't like it.

Read Doctrine's post again, namechangeguy. Things that are damaging to people and society can be and are stopped/banned.

And I agree with you about celebrity culture - I dislike it intensely but that doesn't stop my whole family entering me into an X-Factor sweep stake without consulting me

But I don't why, just because celebrity culture exists, LDCs have to exist.

AGree on the x-factor/celebrity culture front - I hate it too. I actually think that shows like x-factor contribute to a culture of bullying/laughing at people. After all, if Simon Cowell etc do it on TV, then how can it not be ok to do it in the playground/workplace?

There's probably no statistical data to support my feelings on this but it doesn't mean it's not a contributory factor. But anyway, I digress.

FastLoris - I think your question was answered eloquently by running's and Doctrine's posts.