Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that? Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay. And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

You have some very odd ideas on objectification, sausage.

'Denying my agency and therefore objectifying me'

Sausage, disagreeing with you isn't the same as objectifying you.

'Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.'

Ah, the old 'you can only do one thing at a time' fallacy. We are women. We can multitask.

sausage, somehow you have successfully completely devalued the verb "to objectify"

that takes some doing [hsmile]

sausage SAUSAGE sausage sausage

if I say it enough times in enough different ways, it ceases to have any meaning

Sausage - one ill in society (sexist music videos) doesn't justify another ill in society (lap dancing clubs).

HappyHalloween

'To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.'

It's not strange, it's to do with the structural nature of sexism under the patriarchy that puts men and women in a hierarchical relationship. To objectify a group which is worse off politically, economically and when it comes to power and violence, is more harmful than objectifying a group that is in a better position than you.

These 10,000 women who would lose their lucrative jobs if LDCs were to close .
Presumably they could all get alternative employment quite easily, after all, they're mainly Law/Medical students funding their degrees by a bit of prancing around with their tops off, aren't they?
Oh, wait......

I do like the word "sausage" though, it's my pet name for my DH [hwink]

So objectification is only bad if it is man on woman because it causes violence? Now we have seen that there is no causal link between LDCs and violent abuse so not sure that the theory holds up. Violent sexual behaviour is much more likely around night clubs. But hey the truth doesn't matter if it spoils a theory.

True Bela with a double dip recession if these women get the jobs what happens to the people who would have got them otherwise? And according to Labour MP Rachel Reeves women are being hit hardest. But the biggest hit could be the number of women who stop studying for their degrees, as (from the small data set) one third of dancers are financing their way through high education/degree. So now we get less educated women? Not sure if they would all give up there studies but I would guess quite a lot would.

And if we talk real life a vocal minority can shout very loud but so far the public consultations have been heavily against closing the clubs.

Anyway as amusing as this has been real life calls, will be back tomorrow to pick up (half term and something to keep my brain active).

I think all objectification is bad, personally, but coupled with structural oppression it is particularly harmful.

I read that the public consultations show that people living in the areas are overwhelmingly against lap dancing clubs. Including in Newquay.

Sausage, you (and daddancer) have such a very strange and twisted view of objectification that I really don't know how to answer, but I'll give it a go.

When people are speaking out against lap dancing clubs for reasons of them objectifying women, they are talking about sexual objectification . They are talking about women being seen as a pair of tits, a fuck toy, and nothing else. This is pretty much what lap dancing clubs do to the women who work there - regardless of the fact that some men say they go to 'buy drinks' and 'chat' to women.

Yes, men can be objectified too - who said they can't be? - but we are talking lap dancing clubs on this thread, and men are hardly being objectified in lap dancing clubs, are they? Maybe seen as mugs and walking wallets - yes - but that's not the same as being sexually objectified.

As far as I am aware, you do not objectify someone by disagreeing with them on an internet forum.

Somerset low level harassment as you point out takes place in night clubs and everywhere so how would banning anything change that?

Yes, this is my point.

As long as lap dancing is encouraged and seen as acceptable, then this feeds into a culture which objectifies women and creates an environment where women experience abuse and assault on low, medium and high levels on a daily basis.

Loo at the music videos that my boys are exposed to. Think there are better things in society to change than LDCs.

Yeah, not great are they? All part and parcel of the same culture. I agree, I think music videos and such like need addressing to and you'll certainly see me arguing the toss on those threads. This is a thread about lap dancing clubs, though - hence the focus of this particular discussion. Odd to assume I/we are only concerend with this particular issue...?

All of your points have been pretty much addressed by everyone else, but...

To me objectification is everyday and is about men objectifying women, men objectifying men, women objectifying women and women objectifying men. Strange how everyone only concentrates on one aspect and the other 3 are okay.

No, not strange at all. Women as a gender have a long and glorious tradition of being the oppressed sex. Women don't hold the balance of power in society, so their objectification is of greater concern.

And remembering that in objectification you are denying the the dancer's agency and objectifying them yourself. And by denying that they have opinions you are silencing them which is another form of objectification. But I have said this now 4 times and you are now denying my agency and therefore objectifying me.

Who's denying your opinion? [hhmm] You're as entitled to express it as anyone - just as we're all entitled to agree or disagree.

As always with these threads, I tend to come away thinking that if you're not really a holistic, strategic, bigger-picture thinker, it can be easy to get bogged down in the face-value detail.

Personally - I do not want to deny the individual dancer's agency, to use your words. I am far more interested on the impact of such choices on women as a whole, rather than the individual. Lap dancing may, arguably, be all sweetness and light and 'empowering' for an individual woman, but the wider impact on all women is of more concern to me. To paraphrase - a small step forward for an individual woman, but a giant leap backwards for womenkind.

I'd prefer to live in a society that doesn't reduce women to the sex class, that doesn't create an environment where women feel the need to make the choice to become a stripper to make their way in life. I don't see men rushing out to make such choices. I don't see 'highly intelligent' men with law degrees and the like choosing to take their clothes off for a crowd's gratification. In short, I want to live in a world where women are faced with the same choices men are free to make. Or more pertinently, not* to have to make choices that men don't have to make.

*As an aside, I've noticed that lap dancaers have repeatedly been described as 'highly intelligent' on this thread, pretty much always by the 'pro' side. As if this is somehow a suprise. Why wouldn't they be intelligent? Why does the 'highly' need to be added. It just comes across as very patronising to me.

I'm actually quite concerned about the claims on this thread that the opening of a lap dancing club actually caused sexual and violent crime to fall in Newquay and Portsmouth.

The Portsmouth argument has been satisfactorily put to bed by Linerunner (thanks Linerunner) - that rather than it being the opening of a lap dancing club causing a decrease in crime by 95%, it was a joint operation by police and pub/club owners in the area which was responsible for this.

Newquay - well a bit of googling tells me that the police in Newquay attributed particular rapes and sexual assaults in the area to the opening of a lap dancing club.

An individual - with a website 'Newquay Voice' then apparently has done a FOI Req - and has said that sexual assaults actually fell since the opening of the LDC. Firstly, I would really like to see the figures/ more information on this before the claim 'Lap dancing clubs reduce sexual crime' becomes set in stone.

Secondly - I'm more disturbed than words can say by the implication on this thread, that to reduce sexual crime, councils have a responsibility to open SEV's for men. WHat on earth does that say about the society we live in? That men are voracious sexual animals that need to be given satisfactory sexual entertainment by women in SEV's or they will go out and sexually attack women?? That men need to be sexually placated in paid establishments like LDCs or they will commit sex crimes?? I'm aghast at the thought.

Strangely enough Sausage, my DD managed to do her Maths degree without having to resort to Lapdancing, as did all of her friends - saying that shutting off the choice of Stripping will impact on female higher education is ridiculous.
Of the hundreds of young women my DD knew at University, only one did work even remotely similar to working in a LDC - she was a waitress at Hooters.
My DD could earn £200 (in tips) for working 3 x 5 hour shifts in an expensive restaurant, waiting tables, fully covered up, no need to degrade herself for the likes of Larry and DadDancer.

Thank you Somerset and Sabrina for lucid explanations re objectification.

Sabrina

When people are speaking out against lap dancing clubs for reasons of them objectifying women, they are talking about sexual objectification . They are talking about women being seen as a pair of tits, a fuck toy, and nothing else. This is pretty much what lap dancing clubs do to the women who work there - regardless of the fact that some men say they go to 'buy drinks' and 'chat' to women.

This is what i call assumed objectification. This is what your perceive the customer thinks. But you can't know for sure what they think because everyone is an individual. just because someone fancies someone, is turned on by them, then why would that automatically make them not regard the person for anything else than this? or even regard them as a lesser person?

So this version of objectification is a one size fits all which assumes the person has the most basic primal level of thought. Therefore by making that sweeping statement you are regarding the customer as a lesser person and hence could regard them as an object

Objectification isn't necessarily down to one individual's perception though, Daddancer.

The women are being sexually objectified by the manner of their employment by the club - they are being employed to take their tops off and wiggle suggestively on demand. They are being treated as sexual playthings by the club and by the clientele of the club.

It matters not that an individual visiting the club claims not to see them as an object - it has already been done by the very nature of of their employment. It matters not whether the women are doing the job through choice - they are just complicit in their own objectification.

I've seen some interesting semantic arguments on MN in my time - but the twisting of the definition of sexual objectification here really takes the

DD - so a man goes to a club and to quote you "fancies someone, is turned on by them". I would actually call that "the most basic primal level of thought".

I am not a banner by nature but I am really struggling here to see how lap dancing appeals to anything but "the most basic primal level of thought".

DadDancer the whole structure of the club objectifies the women.
It is you paying money to spend time with them, not sometimes the other way round.
They have to dress in a particular way and behave to the customers in a particular way.

runningfor the bus I completely agree with you and was trying to make the same point a few pages ago. Another point is the fallacy of, it must be OK because it's so well paid!

I can't think of a way to explain better the points which so many have made on here so well and yet it's all to no avail, sausages and others just cannot seem to grasp what we are saying (and it's more than disagreeing, there seems a genuine inability to understand the argument.) Another point that got lost in the mix-up was when sausages worried about how all the female lawyers and doctors were going to fund their degrees if they lost their lapdancing jobs? I almost wanted to cry at that point. How are all the male lawyers and doctors funding their degrees?? At that point, I really felt the pro-argument had reached ludicrous proportions.

I can't post on here any more without losing the will to live but I'd like to say two things. 1) Thankyou for all who have posted so interestingly and intelligently and thoughtfully on this subject as I have had a few lightbulb moments and 2) If lapdancing is so great and so well paid and so not about objectifying women then why isn't there a proper career structure and wages and international recognition like there are for other forms of dancing and why aren't we encouraging our daughters to train for this? And why aren't more women going to lapdancing clubs to view this really great form of dancing?

They have to dress in a particular way and behave to the customers in a particular way.

There may be some house rules and sometimes a dress code, but how is this any different to any other place of work?

The women are being sexually objectified by the manner of their employment by the club - they are being employed to take their tops off and wiggle suggestively on demand. They are being treated as sexual playthings by the club and by the clientele of the club.

but they aren't sexual play things they are nude performers and entertainers (and you'll probably laugh and say they're the same things). but in the case of 'play things' this would imply that the customer can choose what they can do with them but the reality is the customer has no say in how they preform at all, it is entirely the choice of the dancer. You sit and watch the show much like you would any other live performance and in the same way you can't control it.

I've seen some interesting semantic arguments on MN in my time - but the twisting of the definition of sexual objectification here really takes the
it's not twisting the definition, it's exposing it's flaws and demonstrating how it is so open to interpretation. sexual objectification states a disregard for a persons personality and sentience but in the case of LDC's you really can't know this to be the case, which is why it all falls down. And you probably don't realise the majority of time spent in an LDC is chatting to the dancers rather than the dancing. So personality is a very big part of the job.

I can only assume you have never visited a lap dancing club otherwise you wouldn't be guessing/ making assumptions about these things?

"KRITIQ Tue 30-Oct-12 11:53:11
Happy, I wouldn't go so far as to say posting on these threads or on this board is pointless, even when they are densely populated with members who hold anti-feminist or even just plain old misogynist views. I don't think there is alot of point getting into a textual set to with them. But, there are lots and lots of folks who lurk here - who read but don't contribute. Many a time I've seen posts from people who have said they have learned alot and their views have expanded or changed because of what they have read here. We can't assume that the only people "here" are just the ones who are posting.

Never know when something you post might lead to a light bulb moment for someone!"

^ This.