Sexism in James Bond

[Frans1980]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19812608

I never really thought of it but the article really opened my eyes. I wonder how many young boys see James Bond as a role model??

No you won't Abigail, you'll find lots of reasons why nothing I say is of any relevance to you and completely inaccurate - all of which will centre around my failings.

OK I'm sorry but I not having a discussion with someone who thinks that the rape of thousands of women was not misogyny in action. There is no common ground and you have disgusting views. Rape is a violent act that has been used for centuries to subjugate women.

I have reported your post.

When a man claims that women are naturally maternal, or are by default, bad drivers, he is a sexist. If he was to add that women are only good for a fuck and should be confined to servicing men and their children, it is misogyny. Misogynists are always sexist, but sexists are not always misogynists. For example, if a man says of a woman, "Look at the state of that fat, ugly cow, I wouldn't touch her with yours," then he is a misogynist. It would follow that he does not respect women as equals and is therefore also a sexist.

The only person who questions whether rape is a misogynistic act is a rapist or an apologist for one.

I don't give a shit how many thousands of individual Soviet men raped individual German women. What is your apology there ? Safety in numbers ??

Flatpack I think your example was a very poor choice for the point you were trying to make and I can completely understand the reaction you have had. I think you would struggle to discuss your opinion whatever example you chose, though.

There can be as many motives for rape as there are for murder and other violent crimes ? Rape is every bit as complex. Insisting that no rape is ever "about" sex but is rather about an individual man acting on a patriarchal mandate to sow terror by exercising "power" does a disservice to us all.

This sorry state of affairs should foster honest conversation, not suppress it. We should not be so desperate to establish the seriousness of rape that we stigmatize intelligent discussion of it.

I'm sorry, did someone just say that mass rape by soldiers wasn't necessarily misogyny?

It's not exactly liking women is it? What did they say "sorry luv, I'm just about to ruin your life, but it's nothing personal"?

Does anyone currently posting or lurking on this thread want to continue a conversation with FPH after the statements he has made ? Would he have an avid audience of right-minded people in RL ?

Or would people leave the pub, the lecture hall, the cafe, the living room?

I think what is most likely to happen is that, to echo RL, people will wait until the comments are deleted (or he leaves the public area) and then get on with intelligent discussion.

BDD what do you think are the varied motives for rape, if it isn't always power?

I consider murder is often an expression of power anyhow. Shipman, West, Brady, Sutcliffe, family annihilators - power, surely? Shuffling great aunt Edna off her mortal coil for the inheritance is I suppose a motive of greed. Not sure of any other motives though.

flatpackhamster - have you name-changed? Your posting style is awfully familiar. In any case, the comments I made to uppercut back on page one apply to you as well.

And did you really just venture an argument that soldiers using rape as an instrument of oppression is not misogyny?

I'm sorry, what? Did I just read someone arguing that the rape of a woman is not always a misogynistic act? Really? So someone forces a sex act upon a woman, causing them physical pain and emotional trauma, and this isn't an act of misogyny? What, a person who does this actually likes women? Respects them? I genuinely cannot believe that I have even had to type that.

Re James Bond. Yes, I believe the movies to be misogynistic. The only positive thing I can say about the Bond franchise is that, in a round about way, it inspired my first feminist thoughts. I remember seeing the James Bond Jr cartoon when I was about 7, and hearing the opening credits which featured the lyrics 'look out he's coming through, he's got a job to do... While he rescues the girl'. Okay, I did not know the word 'feminism' when I was 7, but those lyrics angered me, made me question why it was assumed that women needed 'rescuing' by the likes of James Bond, and made me think about the stereotyping of women as being feeble and needing rescuing - of course, I also didn't know the word 'stereotyping' at 7, but it planted a seed and made me think.

Some people on this thread really need to get over themselves! That is all I have to say.

Why? Is entering the debate and venturing an actual argument way too difficult for you?

AbigailAdams

OK I'm sorry but I not having a discussion with someone who thinks that the rape of thousands of women was not misogyny in action.

There is no common ground and you have disgusting views.

Rape is a violent act that has been used for centuries to subjugate women.

And that's exactly what I'm arguing. Yes it has. But that doesn't mean that the people doing it hated women.

That million or so Russian men who raped those poor German women as they marched across Eastern Europe. Did they ALL hate women? All of them? No.
They probably went home after the war and got married, and many of them loved their mothers and sisters.

The German women were a symbol of a regime they hated. Rape was used as an institutional tool of repression by the Soviet system. The Russian soldiers didn't think of the Germans as human after five years of propaganda.

So the complicated, difficult point that I'm making is that because these Russian men had no empathy for the Germans - male or female - they were able to rape without hating women. They didn't see the German women as women. So they carried out these rapes and then returned home, got married, had children and loved their mothers and daughters and sisters.

I have reported your post.

Well done.

For anyone interested in the subject, Antony Beevor's book on the battle for Berlin in 1945 looks in detail at the brutalising effects of Soviet propaganda and military training on its army and looks at length at the aspects of the mass rape, including the denial by the high command and bureaucracy that it was happening (even to this day), and the culture of hatred which led to the treatment of the Germans as non-human.

The same thing happened in reverse, of course, as the Germans marched across the Soviet Union from 41-43.

The reason that rape happened on such a scale wasn't misogyny - it was that the Russians didn't consider the Germans to be human at all. The book quotes soldiers as saying how surprised they were that German people looked like them, because all their propaganda had told them that the Germans were animals.

SomersetONeil

flatpackhamster - have you name-changed? Your posting style is awfully familiar.

No, never.

EleanorBloodBathsket

Bloody hell, i was reading this thinking 'fph has some good points about the films' and then got to his post about rapists not hating women.

I didn't write that. I wrote that it isn't necessary to hate women to be a rapist. That's very different.

Flatpack you don't have to hate every woman inthe world to be a misogynist.

I'm sure DSK doesn't hate his wife. I'm sure he sees the various other women that he has abused, as "other" and he doesn't care about the damage he does to them.That is a misogynistic way to behave which involves acts of hatred against women, women who I suspect DSK considers to be his social inferiors as well as his gender inferiors.

I think quite a few convicted rapists love their mum, don't they ?

The Yorkshire Ripper was married and loved his wife.

At the point a male enters a female with the sole purpose of using violence to subjugate her he doesn't "not hate" her. Using the apology of "war makes men do nasty things" does not change that fact. It's just another way to excuse men to add to all the others.

Go away fph. You neither understand rape or misogyny.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Flatpack you don't have to hate every woman inthe world to be a misogynist.

Agree.
HappyHalloweenMotherFucker

I think quite a few convicted rapists love their mum, don't they ?

The Yorkshire Ripper was married and loved his wife.

At the point a male enters a female with the sole purpose of using violence to subjugate her he doesn't "not hate" her. Using the apology of "war makes men do nasty things" does not change that fact. It's just another way to excuse men to add to all the others.

I haven't excused the behaviour. Nor is it apologist. It's possible to look for a social or psychological reason for an action without apologising for it.

I don't think your sneering attitude towards the effects of war helps advance the discussion.

AbigailAdams

Go away fph. You neither understand rape or misogyny.

Shouldn't you just go back to reporting posts you disagree with? Best close down the discussion so you can retreat to your safe echo chamber where everyone agrees with you.