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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Abortion to be reduced to 20 weeks

505 replies

avenueone · 02/10/2012 22:51

There is a story on the front page of the Telegraph tomorrow (paper review) saying that in brief due to babies? being able to survive from a younger age it should be reduced.
I personally don't think this is an argument as I doubt they could survive without medical intervention. I feel it is just another attempt to undermine a woman's right to choose what we do with out bodies. Sorry no link but there should be one around tomorrow and I will try and post it.

OP posts:
mumnosGOLDisbest · 05/10/2012 14:17

good points emmeline and glad things worked out.

i'm just not sure where the line between a persons rights and responsibilities should be drawn. we all know sex, even protected sex can result in pg so at what point do we say sorry for the cliche a person should take responsibility for their actions? maybe having an abortion is taking responsibility but not if you do it again and again.

MooncupGoddess · 05/10/2012 14:20

"I know of at least 3 women who between the ages of 19-25 have had 4+ abortions because they were a bit careless but could have continued with their pgs and gone on to be loving, responsible mums."

Are you suggesting these women should not have been allowed access to legal abortion?

Have you ever read any accounts of illegal abortions? Desperate women do not always just bite the bullet and go, 'oh, never mind, I'll have to become a loving responsible mum then'.

pumpkinsweetie · 05/10/2012 14:23

I believe it is a womans choice until the baby becomes capable of living-that can be as young as 21 weeks in some cases so i don't have a problem with this new legislation.
Obviously medical reasons are a different matter altogether but a normal pregnancy after 20 weeks should be aborted just because its the womans body as that fetus inside of her is also entitled to life.

pumpkinsweetie · 05/10/2012 14:23

Shouldn't not should -stupi phone

OptimisticPessimist · 05/10/2012 14:28

I would say that having an abortion is just as much taking responsibility as continuing the pregnancy. It is accepting that conception has occurred and deciding the best course of action for yourself, your unborn child and anyone else needing consideration. In some cases it could be considered less responsible to continue the pregnancy than to abort.

And I don't think it matters whether someone might have been fine if they hadn't had an abortion, what's important is that they didn't want to remain pregnant. It's not just about "coping fine with motherhood". I can't verbalise what I want to say here but I find it so wrong that just because women would cope fine then they shouldn't have the option of not having to.

mumnosGOLDisbest · 05/10/2012 14:29

MAP i don't see as killing a foetus. maybe because if the uncertainty over being pg or not (not sure on that one but dont have an issue with it).

contraception hopefully prevents a life beginning.

abortion ends a life

teaandhugs i get your point but the girls i know had a very different attitude towards it. imo there is also a baby to consider, to them their decisions were only about them. of cause i don't know them better but i think sometimes concessions have to be made in your plans, eg pospone study or study part time.

TeaAndHugs · 05/10/2012 14:37

@mumnos

Fair enough. Personally, though, I wouldn't want to grow up knowing that my mother had chosen the option that wasn't best for her out of a sense of duty towards me. I would rather not have been born in that situation.

mumnosGOLDisbest · 05/10/2012 14:47

don't know why there's a __ end a life ? I'll blame my phone Blush

WidowWadman · 05/10/2012 14:57

maybe because your phone is wiser than you.

Abortion ends a pregnancy.

EmmelineGoulden · 05/10/2012 14:59

mumnos "maybe having an abortion is taking responsibility but not if you do it again and again."

But from an entirely pragmatic perspective - why on earth would you want the people who you think don't take responsibility for their actions becoming parents? I can't see how that would be a good thing.

blackcurrants · 05/10/2012 15:01

"Abortion ends a life" - see here's where I really don't understand the forced birth brigade; if you really think abortion ends a life, why do you think that is sometimes allowable and sometimes not? Are some lives more valuable than others to. you?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 05/10/2012 15:06

Mumnos if your POV is that life begins at implantation and the only reason for an abortion is a kind of triage situation where the doctor is choosing between saving one life or saving the other then it is unlikely any of us will be able to persuade you out of this view.

CakeBump · 05/10/2012 15:15

Hmm I'm totally pro choice too, but after experiencing pregnancy myself (currently 29 weeks) I think it would be right to lower the limit at which you can have an abortion.

If you feel the baby moving around 18 weeks (on average) I find it incredible that some people could go on to terminate as late as 20-odd weeks.

I think the limit should be around 12 to 15 weeks - later in extenuating circumstances eg disability (although I personally don't agree with abortion on the grounds of disability and wouldn't do it) or later finding out.

Happy for other people to have other opinions though :) Live and let live...

OneMoreChap · 05/10/2012 15:37

When I was abortion campaigning in the 70s, I didn't expect to see this anti-abortion stuff in Women's Rights area in the 21st Century...

JugglingWithPossibilities · 05/10/2012 15:46

I think too many people feel pulled towards taking an absolutist stand-point on the issue of abortion. Either people saying that life begins at conception and is sacred and sacrosanct from that point onwards - goodness the Catholic church even having major issues with the use and promotion of contraception ...

... And quite a number of feminists saying that a woman should be free to choose what happens to her body and therefore that abortion should be available on request up until the due date.

Well, I'd just like to say that I think when thinking about this discussion more pragmatism, wisdom, and compassion is called for all round. Which to me means a reasonable, moderate policy, such as abortion available to 20 weeks, but more done both to promote contraception and to ensure any abortions carried out are offered as soon as possible in a pregnancy to women making this decision.

YoullLaughAboutItOneDay · 05/10/2012 15:57

I have an issue with the whole 'when does life begin' approach to abortion. To me, some form of 'life' begins at fertilisation. The cells can multiply and divide and, eventually, become a foetus. They do that independently of any form of outside impetus. Then, if all goes well, it can become a baby. It isn't an independent life. It isn't a 'baby' at that point. But it is, in some way, alive.

To me, an abortion is ending some form of 'life', but it doesn't mean that it is the same as killing a baby, or any of those things anti-abortion campaigners claim. I think it's about balancing the point at which the rights of the foetus override the decision making right of the woman. I think the law is about right on that. The cut off is well before the foetus is viable without massive medical intervention (and, sadly, many wanted 24 weekers do not survive even then).

BatterseaGirl · 05/10/2012 16:30

I've always been pro choice but always thought that I couldn't go through with a termination myself. However, when I accidentally fell pregnant (mistake with contraception and morning after pill not working and already having 4 children)) I knew straight away that I would go ahead with termination. I think it shows that you never know what you'll think unless you are actually in the situation. Which makes it such a nonsense that laws on abortion are mainly made by men (and minister for women trying to reduce women's rights is an absolute affront to women).

CakeBump · 05/10/2012 16:43

Did anyone see the news article about a woman who got 8 years for taking abortion inducing drugs at 39 weeks?

How does that work with regard to the baby? Wouldn't most babies survive being born at 39 weeks? Or maybe the baby was dead already, or did she kill it afterwards (in which case isn't it murder?)?

And if you have an abortion at 24 weeks, surely the baby might be born alive, and if so, then what happens?

YoullLaughAboutItOneDay · 05/10/2012 16:46

Cake - in late abortions they inject the baby with something to stop the heart. It would not be born alive. The 'abortion inducing' drugs that woman took were to kill the baby, then bring on labour. It wasn't just an induction drug.

CakeBump · 05/10/2012 16:58

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

It does seem wrong to purposefully stop the heart imo. That kind of seems like killing the baby to me, even though it's inside the womb.

CakeBump · 05/10/2012 16:59

I wonder why that lady did it? She must have had mental health issues or an extremely distressing home life....

MooncupGoddess · 05/10/2012 17:34

Yes - if you read up on the background to that story it is all terribly sad. The sentence is ridiculous IMO and serves no public interest whatever. A suspended/community sentence would have been much more sensible in every way.

CakeBump · 05/10/2012 17:49

The judge was some kind of Christian fundamentalist, poor woman.

WithoutCaution · 05/10/2012 17:56

Abortion should be freely available for all women religion shouldn't come into it at all stages of pregnancy. Women shouldn't be pressured into keeping an unwanted fetus just because abortion makes some people uncomfortable. I'd like to have the option to abort if I ever felt the need. It's my body, my life, my (and my DHs) decision, end of.

Is it really better for a baby to be kept to term and then live with a mother who didn't want it and may even resent it as she can't do what she'd planned with her life? What if keeping the unwanted child causes a happy marriage to break down? An old friend of mine kept her unplanned, severely disabled baby despite her husband wanting her to get an abortion. Her husband couldn't cope and cited the only reason he wanted a divorce was because of the child and the constant stress and disruption the child caused to their once happy life :( She's struggling to cope with the strains of having the child and being an only parent since her ex wants nothing to do with the child. She's often thought about how life would have been if she'd had the abortion.

LonelyCloud · 05/10/2012 22:22

The thing about lowering the abortion limit to 20 weeks, is that you'd have no time to consider options if the anomoly scan showed something seriously wrong with the baby. Even if abortions in the case of severe deformity are permitted after the cut-off time, I'd imagine it's still more difficult to get one.

The other thing, which some previous posters have mentioned, is the viability issue. mcmooncup quoted some statistics earlier -

Survival rates:

21 weeks and less 0%

22 weeks 0-10%*

23 weeks 10-35%

24 weeks 40-70%

Extremely premature babies born at these gestations who survive are far more likely to be severely disabled than babies who are full-term or less premature.

About 50% of surviving babies born before 26 weeks have severe or moderate disabilities - only about 20% of them have no disabilities. And that covers all babies born before 26 weeks - the earlier the birth, the higher the chance of disabilities.

The people campaigning for lowered abortion limits are happy to gloss over this, and let people assume that all these extremely premature babies are at no more risk of severe disability than a full term baby, and are all going to grow up into normal healthy children. Sadly that just isn't the case.