Another family annihilator

[Sunnywithachanceofshowers]

Two children murdered by their father

I can't begin to understand why someone would kill their children.

'Family Annihilators are the logical consequence of a society which sees women and children as possessions of men'

Absolutely agree with SGM on this.

It's sickening how often stories like this are in the papers. I agree the use of the word 'tragedy' is grossly inappropriate. What message does it send to the mother of those children - 'gee shucks, sorry your children have been murdered but the whole situation is just rather tragic really?' I cannot imagine the rage and grief those women must feel, especially since so many of them have already suffered years of terror and abuse at the hands of the man already.

Isn't it particularly common in some societies? I wonder if that gives any insights into the factors that lead up to family annihilation? For example, I read somewhere that rural Afrikaaner communities had the highest rates of family annihilation by father in the world.

And it may well be the reasons men do it are, by and large, very different from the reasons why women do it: she killed her children then herself out of desperation, believing she was saving her children from a terrible world/fate at the hands of an abusive father. He killed his children then himself as an act of ultimate control over the children and revenge against the woman who finally had the courage to leave him.

Not saying that's every case by any means, but that is how the stories often seem to pan out to me.

I seem to remember reading - yes, sloppy anecdote I know - that the incidence of child murder was still at a very low level historically, but the availability of news coverage increased our visibility of it markedly.

It does feel like there are a lot more of these cases in the last few years, and the vast majority of them seem to be by men who are "revenging themselves" on their partner. It seems an odd choice; I would have been far more likely to bump off XW than my kids, and I'd probably have been out of prison in 10 years. Why would child murder and suicide be in any way a rational response?

It also feels like there is a rise in child killings by women [some asylum based, some based on fears for the child, but also a bit "mine, can't have"]; I'd have though that was mostly societal impact.

Is there a causative link to some of the media hysteria whipped up by F4J etc?
"You'll never see your kids". Mostly bollocks, of course, as even with a difficult XW my access was sorted legally.

drjohnsonsca
"Oh god. Uppercut conflates abortion and murder. I'm off."

Narked
" "

Oh please, feel free to explain the fundamental difference, beyond semantics, between killing a foetus in its 35th gestational week and killing it 5 minutes after its born.

'Oh please, feel free to explain the fundamental difference, beyond semantics, between killing a foetus in its 35th gestational week and killing it 5 minutes after its born'

The fundamental difference is the word 'gestational'. At 35 weeks pregnancy, the foetus lives in and is fully supported by the woman's body. A woman should have absolute right over her own body, just as a man does. 5 minutes after birth, a baby's body is functioning independently of the woman's body and so becomes a separate person, with separate legal rights.

I said "beyond semantics"; whether you kill a lifeform at the beginning or end of its existence, or upon who or what that lifeform depends on for survival, does not alter the fact you are killing it.

Men cannot get pregnant so the comparison is void.

Wow. Rebuked, although politely

I said Is there a causative link to some of the media hysteria whipped up by F4J etc?
"You'll never see your kids". Mostly bollocks, of course, as even with a difficult XW my access was sorted legally.

I was promptly provided with a couple of contrary examples

I still see no reason, good or otherwise, why it could ever seem a good idea to kill your children.

Exactly "Men cannot get pregnant" therefore men should butt out of these discussions as they can never really understand what it is to have a 'lifeform' as you so charmingly put it growing inside them.

Just my opinion mind. It's not like it's going to stop men feeling it's their right to telling women what to do with their bodies as they have been doing since time immemorial

Uppercut the difference between being pregnant and not being pregnant is a bit more than semantics. But could you keep that argument on the abortion to term thread, please.

And also bear in mind the process of going from 'pregnant' to 'no longer pregnant' can be fatal.

Back to the subject in hand... I agree that, in the press, a male annihilator is positioned as a 'tragic occurrence' whereas a woman is 'mentally ill'. Perhaps partlly because women are deemed to be more 'naturally' nurturing, so therefore the crime is more aberrant?

It's vile, whether done by a man or a woman. It seems that this is done by more men than women (point above about press reports noted) and I don't know how it can be prevented.

What was the point of your link or even your last post OneMoreChap? It seems like we have missed a post somewhere. What rebuke?

"Women in the UK are far more likely to be incarcerated than men for petty crimes and drug problems. Men are much more likely to given community service orders, anger management classes and rehab for the same crimes."

I suspect, though, that this issue is a good deal more complex even than that, SGM. There are too many prejudices and assumptions surrounding this. I actually don't necessarily disagree about it's being a "gendered" issue. I'm just not convinced by any of the arguments I've read here most of which boil down to "all most men are bastards" or "all most bastards are men".
I think if you want to understand this type of crime with a view to preventing it, you have to be willing to set aside what you think you know about it and ask questions that you think you already know the answers to. (don't mean you specifically, btw, SGM)

I think it's worth saying ( or not depending on yr outlook ) that the percentage of parents who kill their own children is roughly 50:50 male / female in the UK.

Where children are killed by a step parent it's predominantly male.

AbigailAdams I got a PM regarding my previous post, ticking me off.

Oh right! Still can't see where your link fits in with the discussion. Mind you I did skim read it because it was mainly drivel

EldritchCleavage

"And it may well be the reasons men do it are, by and large, very different from the reasons why women do it: she killed her children then herself out of desperation, believing she was saving her children from a terrible world/fate at the hands of an abusive father. He killed his children then himself as an act of ultimate control over the children and revenge against the woman who finally had the courage to leave him."

Aren't we in danger of gender sterotyping here ? Patriarchy has labelled both feminine and masculine traits, women seen as caring, nurturing, passive, sensitive and murder in desperation, rather than her being aggressive, dominant and wanting ultimate control ?

I can see that danger, and I also see that men and women will often express their feelings and motives (e.g. in suicide notes) in socially acceptable ways that may well not coincide with their actual feelings and motives.

But I also think that we can take into account the different conditioning that men and women experience, which has a marked effect on behaviour, and the different circumstances they often inhabit.

It isn't gender stereotyping to say that women are much more likely than men to be victims of DV, or to be the at home parent, or to get the children living with them after divorce, all of which feed into the actions and reactions I was talking about.

I did also say: 'Not saying that's every case by any means, but that is how the stories often seem to pan out to me'

EldritchCleavage Thu 04-Oct-12 11:25:57
It isn't gender stereotyping to say that women are much more likely than men to be victims of DV

Well actually... it might be.
Latest figures I saw suggested a 60/40 F/M split

HI OMC

Here is a link to some UK crime stats from the British Crime Survey - p66 onwards gives a table of split of "intimate violence" victims by gender and by type e.g. sexual assault, stalking:
www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011/hosb1011?view=Binary

In all bar one category women are higher sufferers than men but the proportionaliy of the two varies by category. Partner abuse (non-physical, threats, sexual assault, stalking) overall was suffered by 3.7% of men and 5.8% of women in the previous year. However, I don't understand how it can stat 'non-physical abuse' but also have a category for 'force - severe' - haven't got time to follow the links more carefully now to understand.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011/hosb1011?view=Binary

proper link. I assume the table I pointed out doesn't include e.g. partner murder.

So partenr abuse 3.7% male call it 4 5.8% female call it 6 so as I said about 40/60 then?

I recently complained about the reporting of a case like this by the BBC (eg "tragic", "under stress", "exwife in new relationship"). Had I heard the radio 4 interview would have complained about any suggestion that lack of access to DC could lead fathers to kill them.

I actually did think of complaining, Dozer, which is why I asked if someone else had heard it. I'm not at my intellectual peak at 8am, so I wanted to double-check in case I misheard or misunderstood.

I'm writing about this atm. Book on filicide/infanticide, focusing on filicide by mothers.

The 50/50 statistic regarding filicide by mothers/fathers above is correct.

However, the type of murders committed by mothers and fathers tend to be different. Women are more likely to try to kill themselves along with their child, and fail. (As Theresa Riggi apparently did). Far fewer women kill their children as a result of residence disputes, although Riggi did, of course.

Fathers are far more likely to kill their children violently or as a result of long term physical abuse.