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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Violence Against Women

514 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 12:27

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

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HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:41

The lines between being a man and a woman are a lot finer than you seem to think Eats , unless you're talking about gender, which in a patriarchy the lines are obviously very distinct. It's not actually that far to become a man, but obviously means a lot to people who want to have the necessary physical changes.

And really, if it matters so much because people with penises can access things designated just for women, still why does it matter? Confused they're only willies.

KRITIQ · 01/10/2012 22:42

Hmmm. I realise I will probably be taking this thread on a tangent somewhat, but it has meandered considerably already.

I am I believe older than most of the contributors to this thread and have been involved in some form or other of feminist activism for over 30 years. That doesn't give me any special status or authority, but I have had the opportunity to observe the evolution of the feminist movement from both a personal and a theoretical basis. I don't assume nor expect that anyone else will agree with my impressions.

Thinking back 20 - 25 years ago, I joined together with feminists who came to the movement by many paths and represented many different facets of feminism. There were often lively discussions and sometimes disagreements. Collectives could be hell or heaven depending. :) However, there seemed to be at least a willingness to focus on common ground we did share. Yes, it did include radical feminists, or at least women who saw themselves as radical feminists at the time.

I can never recall, however, any examples where representatives of any section of the movement trying to exert their superior status, claim exclusive entitlement to the term "feminism," nor condemn other feminists as ignorant, fakes, puppets of the patriarchy or in the other patronising terms I seem to hear from some quarters now. I've pondered a bit where the chauvinistic approach of some radical feminists might be coming from. As I said, I don't expect they or anyone else will agree on my "take," but what the hell, here it is!

I think in times of economic austerity and social unrest, it's not unusual for social, political and even faith movements to "turn more inward" than they would in less unsettled times. When the world outside is insecure, you want to know who you can trust and take comfort from being amongst other believers. To be sure who is "one of us," movements become more prescriptive about what behaviours and beliefs are acceptable and not allowed. Another way to mark who is "us" is to define who is "them," and a quick and easy way to promote unity is to depict "them" and the characteristics they embody as inferior or even better, as threatening to "us" in some way. Sometimes, condemning "them" appears to become more important than promoting whatever it is that brought "us" together as a movement!

My hunch is that this is what is happening recently in some quarters of radical feminism.

I think trans women serve as that "unifying pariah" for some radical feminists at the moment. Transmen are also sometimes targeted (but more along the lines of patronising and pitying - they are all just misguided/deluded Lesbians who refuse to accept their "true" identity who are exploited by the male medical establishment,) and also bisexual women, who've demonstrated that they can have sexual/romantic relationships with women so have absolutely no excuse for having any sexual/romantic interest in men.

It's interesting that Beachcomber says she doesn't understand the idea of feminism being a "journey," that it is something you either accept, chapter and verse, or you don't (and therefore have no right to call yourself a genuine feminist.) The approach makes me think of some fundamentalist Christian denominations that insist the only way to salvation is to follow their creed without deviation.

It's also interesting that there seems to be the suggestion from Eats and Beachcomber on this thread at least, that having that "faith" in the ideals of radical feminism is more important than having evidence to substantiate what you believe.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:44

Hoop if you think it doesnt matter then surely you think there should be now omen only space? So you would send any girls you have/had into a men's toilet if the women's toilet was busy? After all as you said, they are only willies.

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HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:48

Of course not, don't be obtuse. Men as a class, women as a class - there is room for the quirks of individuality, no?

They're not sexual predators, they're trans.

And having a willy doesn't make you a predator anyhow. In the loos there would be a chance of my DD seeing a willy, but in any other actual real situation, ok it's be slightly unusual to have a trans who didn't 'pass' in the midst, but no reason to have a freak out about it Confused

HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 22:49

Interesting post KRITIQ I agree that fundamentalism is not the way forward.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:51

But if you think there is no issue for a man with a willy being in a womens toilets, who does it matter if they identify as trans are not? It doesnt logically make sense. Either you object to willies in ladires toilets or you dont? And if you dont then all men and women should use the same bathrooms.

And lots of trans dont pass

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OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:51

'Omen only space' - a safe environment where demonic offspring of the Great Satan can express themselves free of oppression from the virtuous?

Grin
kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

puds11 · 01/10/2012 22:51

Eats, there has been genetic studies conducted that do show that the chromosome balance in transgender individuals is different to that of a 'normal' male or female.

So who are you to dictate that this is a physiological disorder, when it is more likely a genetic mix-up resulting in a person who is not more one sex than the other, but who lands somewhere in the middle ground and makes a decision based on their own feelings, which sex they feel most associated with.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:52

Yes my w key keeps sticking.

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kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:55

Ooh and great post, KRITIQ. The idea that feminism is not a journey also puts me in mind of those theological doctrines that privilege revelation over canon, meaning that the most important thing is not what you've read or whether there are facts that support your assertions, but the force of your conviction and the persuasiveness with which you can transmit it to others.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 22:56

There have been no studies that show this that stand up to even the most basic level of scientific scruting. Tell me the study you are thinking of and I will explain why it is rubbish.

And that doesnt detract from the illogicality of the position here. Either women only space doesnt matter at all - bathrooms, sexual abuse support groups should all be men and women together, or it does matter and trans should be excluded.

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OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 22:57

Is 'scruting' a word?

Confused
kim147 · 01/10/2012 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

puds11 · 01/10/2012 23:01

I will en devour to find articles for you, but in the mean time may i ask why you are so strongly apposed to a women doing something that makes her feel better/more comfortable in her own skin?

I have little experience with extreme feminism (which i assume this is) and would like to be enlightened as to what the problem is with transgender females?

I would also like to ask why it is an issue if i like to get piercings or tattoos?

None of this is meant as an attack, it is genuinely curiosity, although i may appose your views.

OTheHugeManatee · 01/10/2012 23:02

If you're planning on scruting them, Kim, make sure you put your Marigolds on first.

MmeLindor · 01/10/2012 23:02

Fantastic post, Kritiq

Eats
I don't know about you, but I find there is a massive difference between using a loo with someone who is packing a frankfurter, and a person who was born a man attending a sexual abuse support group for women.

Don't you see that?

puds11 · 01/10/2012 23:11

Kim are you asking for my credentials or the op's?

KRITIQ · 01/10/2012 23:12

Eats, you say many trans women don't "pass." Do you mean that they don't "look" or "act" like women? Surely, that involves accepting attributes commonly associated with one or other gender. It's my understanding that feminists recognise gender (like race, class, disability, etc.) as a social construct and a "tool" for maintaining patriarchal hegemony. It seems just a bit "wrong" for feminists to be using this "tool" themselves, surely.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HoopDePoop · 01/10/2012 23:20

I wouldn't mind a willy in the vicinity as long as it was in a cubicle tbh.

Mixed loos - fine if well run and clean. And not with those godawful bins for tampons rammed right next to the loo and never emptied

I don't get the linking of trans with sexual abuse support groups - have there been many cases where it's been an issue? And if everyone is there for the same reason, I still don't see a problem tbh.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 23:20

puds the issue around Trans is twofold.

  1. Those who are diagnosed and see themselves as Trans are being sold a lie. They feel unhappy that how they want to behave, express themselves and act is seen as not appropriate. So for example a very effeminate boy will be censored for wanting to wear dresses, play with dolls and other girls and act in a more gentle manner. Similarly a more masculine girl will be censored for wanting to wear boys clothes, play only with boys, act more aggressively and play with boys toys and wear boys clothes.

Because they are censored for that behaviour some of these girls and boys start to look at other children and think - for example in the case of a boy - well the girls get to act and behave in that way and that is how I want to act and behave so I must really be a girl.

These girls and boys express this and are then diagnosed as being Trans. They learn about surgery and hormones and are encouraged through dovcumentaries, the internet and media to see this as the next logical step.

So women and men end up taking hormones that cause damage to their bodies and having surgery to try and make themselves look like the opposite sex. Women tend to pass as men, better than men pass as women. So in many cases you have men who have had breast implants and taken hormones but still look partly like men. And then they face discrimination, violence and bigotry from some idiotic men.

So they are sold a lie. It is not a compassionate response to the original issue.

  1. It is not possible to change sex. Individuals may want to, but it is not possible. 75-80% do not have genital surgery partly because of the many common complications. Many men who have transitioned to "women" still look like men. And both women and men have been socialised as children to act in a certain way as adults.

Most, although not all Trans people want access to spaces that are for their sex that they want to be. So men who have transitioned into "women" want to be able to use womens bathrooms, communal showers, rape crisis services, sexual abuse support services, etc.

But unsurprisingly most women who attend a woman only sexual abuse support group do not want an individual also attending who looks like a man. Similarly many women do not want an individual using a communal shower who still has a penis. And the same with men. There have been complaints from gay men of women who have "transitioned" to "men" trying to access gay mens bathhouses for example.

Most people, including radical feminists, dont care if Trans people are using mixed spaces. It is when single sex spaces are there that it becomes an issue.

  1. Children in America are being diagnosed as Trans at 5 years of age for wanting to play with toys of the other sex. That is seriously scary and sows the increasing pressure there is for girls and boys to fit into tighter and tighter straitjackets about whtat is appropriate gender behaviour.
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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 23:22

Hoop there have been sexual support groups and rape support groups where Trans have attended or wanted to attend. And the women already attending havent been happy. Some women dont care about talking about sexual abuse or rape in a mixed group, but lots do. Those that do deserve to feel safe and be in a women only group

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 23:26

Kritiq the language of passing is one used by Trans. Yes it means for example a man who wants to be a woman successfully managing to pass as a woman. Women and men ahve different bodies - and I am not just talkinga bout genitals. If someone discovers ancient human bones it is possible to say if they belong to a man or woman by the size, length and shape of the bones.

It is blindingly obvious most of the time of a man who has transitioned to a "woman" is a man. You can see it in the shape and size of their body, their voice, the shape of the face, etc.

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