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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you think (your) sexuality changes how you relate to women-only spaces?

184 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 25/09/2012 09:21

I was wondering how much sexuality is influenced by, or influences, how you interact socially with other women. I don't mean 'is sexual orientation determined by nurture' because that's offensive bullshit, I mean the more nuanced stuff about how you are sexually and what kind of sexual relationships you like to form.

I would like to think more about it without getting into that tedious 'oh, you are a feminist, you have to hate men/love women/mistake 'equality' for 'having no personal preferences amongst people'.

What I've been noticing is, I'm valuing women-only spaces more and more. And this is despite (because of?) the fact I naturally end up in groups with lots of women because a lot of my work is female-dominated. I was thinking about how much I just plain enjoy women's company. And I wonder how much this has to do with sexual identity (I'm rather vapidly and theoretically bisexual but have been married for a short time). And yet, although we're all enthusiastically discussing feminism, and separatist feminism, and all sorts of exciting theories, most of us are married or in monogamous relationships with men. Is there a correlation?!

MN seems also to be full of women who're pretty clued up on how to have a good sex life, and I wonder if that's because we're a majority-female community who get a lot of time to talk 'woman to woman'?

OP posts:
Hullygully · 25/09/2012 12:59

cake - should have said: women that speak ONLY of those things...

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:00

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Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:01

I think sexual orientation is a social construct.

I don't. That's where we differ!

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:03

I grew up then too, sexuality has never been a big issue in my life (mine or other people's). In my world, some were straight, some were gay, some both, some changed sex...they were all pretty convinced of the way they felt and accepted by the rest of us.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/09/2012 13:07

I think we are all taught to be Het. Even if our parents dont do this, wider society certainly does. Programmes, films, fairy tales, books children see/read may feature marriages or relationships between men and women. How many feature the same between women and women or men and men?

And if society didnt expect us to be Het why wouldnt all women - Het, lesbian or bi have to "come out". Because the assumption is that we are Het. If we are not we have to declare that.

CakeandRoses · 25/09/2012 13:08

Ah ok hully, makes sense.

That's interesting complexity. I find that adults do police the girly thing as much as the boy thing though but I agree that girls themselves police it too.

Hmm, actually it's different policing isn't it?

e.g. random adult: You can't let him wear that (insert: hair clip/princess dress/anything pink) Shock He'll turn out gay!

same random adult: aw, she's (insert: rough and tumble/a 'tomboy' Hmm ) Smile, I bet she grows out of it, like you did

THERhubarb · 25/09/2012 13:09

It depends on your background. As I say, mine was very working class and women had their specific roles which were firmly underneath those of the men. If you did anything that was seen as different, then you were labelled as a lesbian.

It's interesting that you say that some of the pressure comes from girls themselves complexity. I hate to say it but I do agree to a certain extent. The pressure at secondary school to wear the right clothes and to have a boyfriend largely came from a female peer group, but you have to wonder who pressurised them?

Now that my dd is in Year 8 at secondary I can see how different the genders are. She is bullied and teased because she doesn't wear the "Miss Sexy" trousers they all wear, because she doesn't dye her hair or wear jewellry and interestingly enough she's been called a lesbian too.

I don't have the experience of being a teenage boy or having a teenage boy to compare, but it's disheartening to know that the pressure to conform to what is perceived as gender roles goes on still.

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:11

Well then, Eats, it just comes down to, if society didn't teach us all to be Het, more women would be gay than presently.

Which is possibly true (and for men too).

But IME those people tend to be v unhappy and it all comes out (haha) in the end, usually when they walk out of a miserable marriage leaving devastation in their wake.

And that is because they deny their borned sexuality.

KRITIQ · 25/09/2012 13:12

I don't know if I'm on the right track here, but the thread has made me think about a couple of different, perhaps interlinked things.

From my own experience, I don't feel I can generalise about whether women-only spaces are automatically good and mixed spaces not good, or other way round. So much has to do with whether the people involved have shared values, agreed ways of interacting, commitment to agreed goals, willing to act in an open and transparent fashion (no hidden agendas,), there is a commitment to inclusion and where there may be differences in levels of power or influence, these are acknowledged and there is a commitment that all will seek not to perpetuate privilege.

So, on the face of it, a feminist group would seem more likely to have those "ingredients" than say a mixed gender group or a group gathered for a different purpose that say just happened to be all women. And, in my life, I have been part of some amazing, supportive, productive, creative groups of feminists where all those ingredients WERE in place.

To be fair, I've also been in a few that were ghastly - not because they were women only, not even because the focus was feminist, but because some of the people involved weren't genuinely signed up to those shared goals, values and commitment to working together. Some of the worst examples involved very painful in-fighting, often centred around a few individuals who perhaps did have their own agendas and others either felt forced to take sides or perhaps got blown out in the blast wave.

But again, to be fair, I've seen just the same thing happen with mixed gender groups (and not always polarised along gender lines,) or groups focussing on other subjects where there was a shared interest or goals. I'm thinking of a particularly bloody battle in a very small local conservation group and a couple of similar situations.

I think there may be higher than usual expectations amongst some women when getting involved in a feminist or women-only group or campaign. Perhaps the expect not only to "get the thing done" that they are gathered for, but also that their personal, social and emotional needs will be met - that they will feel nurtured. They expect the values that underpin feminism to permeate the way the group interacts and functions and how people treat each other. When that happens, it's great, don't get me wrong. But, it doesn't always happen, and I think women can feel even more let down by that than they would in a mixed group or one that's not specifically feminist. That disappointment and pain can morph into bitterness and anger, then on to arguments and personal power struggles.

I do want to emphasise that I don't think this is inherent in women's groups or something that women are more "prone" to by any stretch. I think it is something common in values based organisations, groups or campaigns - where people are involved because they feel passionate about something, and that passion may make it more difficult to hang on to "professional" boundaries, so a criticism can be perceived as a personal one when that's not meant.

That's a bit of a long prattle, but just some thoughts that came to mind.

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:13

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THERhubarb · 25/09/2012 13:13

I do believe we are 'trained' to some extent to be heterosexual but a large part of your sexuality comes from within.

I don't find it bizarre that people can make a choice within that. It all depends on how you define 'sex' or 'lust'.

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:13

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/09/2012 13:14

Yes that is my experience of teenage girls too. But those girls are learning to conform to what is demanded from them and probably at some level partly resenting that. So of course they will feel unhappy at any girl who is not also conforming and will try to make her conform

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:15

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Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:16

I have one of each too, complexity

When people say that stuff to them, they roll their eyes and grin at me. And dd and her friends don't go in for girls = x AT ALL.

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:17

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Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:18

I think geog areas and schools make a huge difference.

ComplexityAndFecundityOfDreams · 25/09/2012 13:18

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Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:19

My friends dd and her friends are all orange with thick mascara and boyfirends for eg. None of that with dd and her mates

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:20

yes, inevitably they will, we can only go on and on and on and on to counterbalance it..

sometimes their friends say stuff and they get all panicked and say, Don't say that in front of her... hahahaha

THERhubarb · 25/09/2012 13:21

I also agree that women are expected to be more hetero and produce children and make good wives. Just look at where the blame lies when the man strays - either on the wife or on the mistress.

Women's sexuality is seen as instrinsically linked with mens and even lesbians are not fully accepted as most lesbian porn is made with men in mind. Society cannot accept lesbians.

However I question as to whether the majority of women would find it easy to become a lesbian. I really don't think women are that focused on sex and can get their 'lust' kicks through humour, debate, a meeting of minds etc.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 25/09/2012 13:23

Rhubarb if you think women "can get their 'lust' kicks through humour, debate, a meeting of minds etc" why cant they get that with women instead of men.

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:24

Erm, all the women I know are extrememely keen on sex...

I think this women being more into romance and flowers and sweet words is another load of suppress female sexuality male bollocks

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:24

That's true Eats, in fact it would be more likely with women if it was about humour and meetings of minds, I'dve thought.

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 13:25

For most women...

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