Do you think (your) sexuality changes how you relate to women-only spaces?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I was wondering how much sexuality is influenced by, or influences, how you interact socially with other women. I don't mean 'is sexual orientation determined by nurture' because that's offensive bullshit, I mean the more nuanced stuff about how you are sexually and what kind of sexual relationships you like to form.

I would like to think more about it without getting into that tedious 'oh, you are a feminist, you have to hate men/love women/mistake 'equality' for 'having no personal preferences amongst people'.

What I've been noticing is, I'm valuing women-only spaces more and more. And this is despite (because of?) the fact I naturally end up in groups with lots of women because a lot of my work is female-dominated. I was thinking about how much I just plain enjoy women's company. And I wonder how much this has to do with sexual identity (I'm rather vapidly and theoretically bisexual but have been married for a short time). And yet, although we're all enthusiastically discussing feminism, and separatist feminism, and all sorts of exciting theories, most of us are married or in monogamous relationships with men. Is there a correlation?!

MN seems also to be full of women who're pretty clued up on how to have a good sex life, and I wonder if that's because we're a majority-female community who get a lot of time to talk 'woman to woman'?

Yes, you do need to hang out with intelligent like-minded women of course...

and men.

That's a socisal rather than gender thing I think.

Where i live now most of the women are er shall we say traditional? So I only have one and a half friends, but I still see all my other lovely friends who keep me going...

Actually i think social life in general IS quite sexually segregated. I am apparently 'unusual' because i don't go out with 'the girls' in fact i have no 'the girls' and if we're in mixed company i often end up talking to the men due to my interests (cycling, sport etc)... i find that particularly as people live in nuclear families it is assumed that he goes out with the boys and she goes out with the girls or they go out together with other couples.
If you, like me, do a sport or hobby that is mainly followed by men then you find people look a bit at you and call you a ladette or assume you only hang out with men so you can flirt with them.

I have always been quite blind to gender, and in my teens was the only girl in my physics class and one of few on my physics degree so ended up relating to men as individuals rather than a group becuase i was in an all male environment and had to find friends within that environment. Naturally the men i choose to be friends with are not sexist twats .

Yes it does have a lot to do with social upbringing but still I find groups of women to be more intimidating than groups of men. I still struggle to find my place with groups of women and tbh, feminist debates like this one are not everyday occurences with women. Or men.

I think that this notion of women as airheads who only like to gossip is largely a societal pressure on women to conform and to know their place. In a working class town like Oldham and Preston, that pressure to conform is pretty strong.

It's usually men who break away from that because they have the opportunity to do so. Those opportunities are rarer for women.

I always find this question of preference a bit baffling TBH. I see people very much as individuals (or groups) whom I like and get on with or don't so much. Their sex is very much incidental.

God Rhubs that is awful.

I do agree that when in mixed company where the women talk about "female" stuff, I end up talking to the men about politics/economics etc becaus eotherwise I die from boredom.

LRD - I think my answer to your op is...not much! Not much connection between the two, for me anyway.

I do think if I was in an all female environment with no access to men, my sexuality would adapt, as does a lot of people's in single-sex boarding schools/prisons etc. We are fluid aren't we when it comes to our needs and the possibilities of meeting them.

Grumpla I agree with your brilliant term of 'no sexist fuckwittery' my DH and I have the same agreement.

THERhubarb I think I have the same problem with other women 'clouding over' as you put it when I talk about Feminism. I try not to get too preachy about it, but when something angers me it's hard not to. I guess that's why I ended up here, in the hope I am with other like-minded women.

Tbh, it does depend on my mood and the sort of people I'm with. I can relax more around other women who are close friends, but women I don't really know I often find harder to approach than men sometimes.

I am married and straight and it's never really bothered me. I don't really give a shit if people see my views as a Feminist and my marital status being at odds with each other because I know, for me, they aren't.

Hully, do you think that depends on how flexible you already see your own sexuality? Do you think it is easier for women to become bisexual than it is for men?

For my part, I think I will always remain heterosexual. I do prefer quite masculine men (body wise) and women don't interest me in that way at all.

Grimbletart - well yes but don't you make observations when with a group of either gender? On an individual basis everyone is completely unique but if we didn't have a natural pack instinct then there would be no need for sociology.

On an individual level you can achieve a closeness with just about anyone, but as a group it's often much harder to become accepted and make your mark. Again, only my experience but I've found it much harder to become accepted by women-only groups than by men.

I wonder if any men have had that experience? I wonder if there are men who find it easier to get on with women? Perhaps having one person there of the opposite gender has a certain novelty factor? Adds a bit of spice to the group? Whereas someone of the same gender is just another face?

I don't know rhubs.

I think if you are in an intense single sex society emotional bonds easily spill over into physical as they do in untrammelled socieites.

Ah but emotional bonds and physical intimacy can mean different things. For some it's just the closeness of another human body - the sex is irrelevant. I suspect for women especially, sex has far less to do with lust by comparison to men. I think women find it far easier to sleep with someone completely platonically, just relishing the closeness more than anything. Men can't seem to be able to do that.

It's like sharing a double bed. Most women don't find it a problem to share that space with another woman whereas most men would have issues with that.

(most men would have issues sharing with another man I mean, not another woman!)

REALLY?

Blimey, I dunno.

Lust figures pretty high with the women I know...

I find myself agreeing with Rhubarb - I find groups of women quite intimidating, but do have some lovely female friends. I think my own experiences are very mixed, I work in a fairly male dominated environment and have come across some 'old fashioned' men, but increasingly I find men of my own generation and younger don't hold those kinds of attitudes.

Generally I find men easy to chat with and spend time with - but I suspect I filter out those with different values - I think most of my close male friends are feminist sympathisers.
In terms of sexuality, I am heterosexual and thinking about this in terms of this thread, whilst I don't always welcome male attention, I do know how to deal with it - wanted or unwanted, whereas, I've never been approached by a woman (I suspect I don't give off the right signals!) and whilst I do have some gay friends, I suspect I have more than I know...I don't think I'm very intuitive about other peoples preferences.

I would consider myself a feminist, but I'm also interested in things like cooking, clothes and make up.
I was at a party not so long ago, mostly other parents from DD's school and ended up having a very 'sisterly' and encouraging discussion about feminism, but we could have equally been chatting about gardening.

Hully, I think women tend to be more emotional when it comes to sex. We are givers, not takers and we bond through sex, sharing the experience. Men tend to be more selfish. I realise I am speaking in very general terms here, but I truly do believe that women are more capable than men in having platonic relationships because it's more the physical intimacy that is craved rather penetrative sex.

I suspect that if you took away the hugs and kisses and just left the sex, women would find that much harder to bear than men, who would probably be quite made up!

Beamur, I have also had lovely sisterly conversations but they have tended to be quite emotional and perhaps it is these emotions that I find hard to deal with? I would much rather have an unemotional conversation/debate. I don't like sharing my emotions in a group situation.

It's definitely women you turn to when you do need emotional support though isn't it? Women tend to 'get' emotional issues much easier than men who prefer to seek the logical high ground.

I toooootally disagree with the stuff you're saying about sex Rhubarb.

I don't think men are takers and women givers. And I believe men and women both need intimacy and closeness and, you know, the, er, hot physical action, equally.

I don't seem to fit anywhere really, in the past I've mainly worked with women, in a primary school for 10 years then a SS daycare centre for adults with learning disabilities then the local Council, I was always very much the "odd one out", I hate Soaps and reality TV and they were pretty much the only topics of conversation other than family, none of them were remotely interested in what I consider interesting.
Now I find myself in a very male dominated workplace and I hate it, the B2B sales team especially are misogynistic dinosaurs, despite being fairly young men , and would treat me with absolute disdain if I tried to join a conversation about cars or computers. Interestingly, the very young men in the other offices treat me with respect and we have good conversations, I'm probably the same age as their mums.

I think I have blinkers on when it comes to sexuality, I have zero interest in women or other men , I genuinely wouldn't know if someone was flirting with me and I've never been attracted to another man in over 30 years, I think I give off serious "keep away" vibes , most people probably think I'm an absolute misery guts , I find it difficult to click with anyone and I can't remember the last time I had an actual RL friend. I don't know how I would describe my sexuality tbh, definitely heterosexual, but much more than just that, I've only ever been attracted to my husband and can't imagine ever having sex with anyone else which seems unusual by MN standards.

In the past I've definitely valued female only spaces, I was a military wife for the first half of my marriage so the company of other wives was vital for suport when living overseas with young babies/pre schoolers but even then I didn't really fit in, I'm a very guarded, private person.
I suppose I'm pretty much a loner, as long as I've got DH and DD, I'm happy.
The thing is though, I'm pleased that DD is everything I'm not, she's outgoing, a natural born leader, very sociable, always at the centre of things, she has lots of good friends, male and female, we've always encouraged her to "take part" as it were, she has my bossy, organisational skills and DH's social skills (thank goodness).

THERhubarb I make a distinction between 'love making' (I hate the term, but it serves a purpose) and 'a shag'.

Shagging for me is all about lust and attraction, and nothing to do with emotional connection.

Love making would be with a partner and all about emotional connection.

As a woman, I crave both, and luckily for me, my DH is able to oblige.

I tend to crave them at different times, and interestingly it's often in line with my cycle.

As for emotional debate, I enjoy them, although I find sometimes some groups of women can be a bit full-on and I have to take a step back.

Hmmm, this is a good (if slightly opaque!) question LRD!

I've always been in hetero relationships but I could imagine myself (if I wasn't now married) in a lesbian sexual relationship quite easily although weirdly, not a proper 'emotional/love' relationship, iykwim? Dunno why. I guess I could be wrong about that.

But like others have said, my feminism must have influenced me in choosing non-fuckwit men to have relationships with.

Oh and I was raised single-handedly by my feminist father (who said he preferred the company of woman "so much more interesting") so maybe that's why I don't have any issue with 'sleeping with the enemy' given I instinctively don't see men as the enemy of feminism (disclaimer: not that anyone here is saying they are)

Sorry about the opacity cake!

I am shite at writing down what I want to ask so thank you very much for discussing it and not just writing it off as dithery/incomprehensible.

Good discussion. I definitely know men who are more comfortable in groups of women, as was asked upthread. I am at work now but can hopefully post later.

Have to say, it does rather vex me how often these threads talk about women in 'stupid shoes & skincare bullshit' vs feminism terms.

sigh.

Oh c'mon complexity that's scarcely fair.

complexity - ok, fair point. Political lesbianism, as I see it, did not have the huge and widespread impact that some might have hoped for originally. My experience of discussing the concept on here previously has been that most of us said we were interested in the idea of separatism/political lesbianism but found it hard to imagine the practice for ourselves personally.

I'm really sorry you don't like waffle.

I started this thread hoping to have a conversation that was not about someone giving nothing away and sitting back to watch a bunfight.

I am trying to engage, and show my own weaknesses in my thought process. Maybe that's not smart enough for some, and I do regret I'm not some super-ninja-radfem-theorist. But at least I am not simply interested in shooting down everyone else's ideas or insisting only I have the right answer. That is just rude and I will not do it.