Do you think (your) sexuality changes how you relate to women-only spaces?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I was wondering how much sexuality is influenced by, or influences, how you interact socially with other women. I don't mean 'is sexual orientation determined by nurture' because that's offensive bullshit, I mean the more nuanced stuff about how you are sexually and what kind of sexual relationships you like to form.

I would like to think more about it without getting into that tedious 'oh, you are a feminist, you have to hate men/love women/mistake 'equality' for 'having no personal preferences amongst people'.

What I've been noticing is, I'm valuing women-only spaces more and more. And this is despite (because of?) the fact I naturally end up in groups with lots of women because a lot of my work is female-dominated. I was thinking about how much I just plain enjoy women's company. And I wonder how much this has to do with sexual identity (I'm rather vapidly and theoretically bisexual but have been married for a short time). And yet, although we're all enthusiastically discussing feminism, and separatist feminism, and all sorts of exciting theories, most of us are married or in monogamous relationships with men. Is there a correlation?!

MN seems also to be full of women who're pretty clued up on how to have a good sex life, and I wonder if that's because we're a majority-female community who get a lot of time to talk 'woman to woman'?

Yes, true ... a hen night in a spa is traditionally a woman-only retreat but I tend to hate those!

That's interesting too, that there seems to be perfectly widespread acceptance that stuff like hen nights are fine to do sex-segregated. Quite a lot of 'traditional' rites of passage have at least some gender segregation. But they're also tied into patriarchial ways of thinking, at least a lot of the time, so I think we don't recognize them as women-only.

I think it might have been SGM who told me that women who have baby showers thrown for them are less likely to suffer post-natal depression, because they typically have a community of women around them. But lots of people will get snooty at that and see it as 'oh, just women having a natter' or 'just an excuse for presents'. It seems a bit of a way of trivializing some of the few mainstream opportunities for women-only groups?

"I just think you are missing the point. You have a couple of bad experiences and aren't tying to meet new female friends, would you write off black people the same way? Or The French?"

How did I deserve that? Where have I said that I have written off all female friends?

Seriously? Why are you so aggressive towards me for relating experiences that happened to me when I was younger?

Sorry LRD but clearly this is no place for me. I do not appreciate such nasty judgements from people who do not know me and who have clearly misinterpreted my posts to such an extent that is truly hurtful and very very offensive.

This is not a debate. This is only for women who agree with each other and God help you if you question that because before you know it, you'll be labelled as an anti-feminist and woman-hater.

I know this is not what you intended LRD and I have a lot of respect for you and would have loved to have debated with you. But this is not the way to open up a debate. It's the way to effectively close one.

My view?

MY EXPERIENCES I cannot change that. Sorry if you don't like them but I am being HONEST and true to how I felt at the time. If that doesn't sit with your views then I am so very very sorry. But how dare you try to imply that my view of women today is silly and bitchy. I have not said that at all, I was trying to understand those experiences with women who may have raised good topics and good points. I have not said what my VIEW is. That is what I was debating.

Have a good one.

Oh, come on, rhubarb, I really don't think I said anything nasty or judgemental.

I accept my OP was vague and easy to misinterpret. That's not your fault, it's mine.

I did feel hurt by your comments about women and I did take them as a general one. It sounds as if you didn't mean that ... you do realize, I read them as you talking about, well, women on here?

I was kind of surprised to get that response.

I suspect this is yet again a tone-on-the-net issue.

I much much much much prefer the company of women.

I have a number of groups of women friends and I love being with them, we chat, laugh, row discuss, drink, dance...

With mixrd company it can be good too, but invariably better with woemn only.

I have one male friend that I like as much as my female friends and with whom I have a similar relationship.

Oh there's a row already

I missed that, was too busy typing my love for women...

Come on, don't fall out, peace and love and more understanding.

Btw, rhubarb, I am realizing you may not have seen the zillions of comments about feminism being a bit shite on here lately, so your comment about women 'clouding over' when you discuss feminism was probably not meant to imply my OP/this section cloud over.

Sorry, hully. I am up for peace and love.

"I think the more "interesting" view points (ime anyways) are there because they it becomes a debate for men. Usually about how actulaly women have it better than men. Interesting to listen to because the view is so different from my own. Oh and wrong. "

How is that judgemental statement right? Is that not a view that is open for debate? Or is that ok because that's a statement that sits easier with you?

Hiding this thread before I throw the laptop across the room now.

I am not sure. I do enjoy visiting lesbian bars with my friends because I feel very safe there. I'm not a lesbian but when I visit these hang-outs, I feel as though it doesn't matter at all.

I'll carry on then...

I find with women groups, the conversation flows more and is faster and funnier and not competitive in the way it can be with men.

I HATE stupid hen things and so-called "girly" stuff with a vengeance tho.

Oh I'm sorry, I missed the sexuality thing too...bit rubbish today

I don't know about that. I seem to be hetero sexually, but women for everything else.

I'm not good at "groups of women" personally. I do have women friends who I love dearly, and my best friends are all women.
But, I dread the whole- NCT group, school pick-up in the playground, all women office- type of environment.

Hmm. Not exactly sure why.

Nor am I sure if that's at all relevant to this discussion, because I have no idea what it would have to do with my sexuality. I'm just waffling, ha!

That's interesting big (not been to a lesbian bar, ever, closest I got way gay night at the club! ). I suppose statistically you are pretty safe there?

hully - yeah, I hate what is supposed to be 'girly'. But the basic activity of meeting up with other women before you get married or after you give birth sounds quite appealing and quite feministy, when you separate it out from all the automatic assumptions ('oh, lord, not another spa day/invitation written in shite poetry/need to gush about pink baby clothes').

Oh, and most of my closest friends are lesbians. I don't know if that means anything tho!

No LRD, I would never ever say that and I thought my posts made it clear that I was talking about women in real life, those I speak to in a work and social context.

I am not a poster who goes around trolling on feminist threads or who posts in here very often at all. I have opinions and experiences that are just as valid. If I cannot say them without you seeing me as someone out to 'get' feminists then I might as well stay quiet. You cannot start an attack because other feminist threads which I have not been a part of have been attacked themselves.

Like I said, I need to hide the thread and fwiw my posts were not directed at you LRD, there are two posters who have judged me and assumed to know what my views are whilst making some cracking "views" themselves which are presumably not up for debate. That's rather unfair do you not think?

Waffle away hi.

I do think possibly, straight women don't have a lot of chances to get together with big groups of other women that aren't generally belittled. People talk all seriously about how men 'network' over male-only golf and such, but they talk about women getting together in really trivializing terms. And in the media it's always portrayed as either 'bitchy' or 'gossipy' or vacuous.

rhubarb - ok, great to know that. I know you don't post much here - as I say, I was surprised at your response and didn't quite pick up where you were (or rather, weren't, having not seen other similar comments that definitely were directed at me/us) coming from.

Thanks for coming back and saying that, I do appreciate it.

Thanks Hully, that is exactly what I was saying about the girly things, exactly what I have experienced but in my effort to tread carefully so as not to offend, I seem to have done just that.

How come what you said about girly convos is ok but when I said that I had experienced that, it's not?

Ah well, better not get myself a complex.

Although, thinking about it, my friend had a women only party the other week, where I had a fantastic time.
It was a really nice atmosphere. I didn't find that intimidating, in the way I do the other examples I gave (NCT etc.).

LRD, I did say that in my younger years, in work situations and in social situations I had tried to fit in with groups of women but as Hully said, the convos were very girly and mostly about shoes and relationships and diets. If I tried to talk about feminism they would cloud over and take a step back. I felt isolated and lonely and didn't have a clue where I fitted in.

At the same time I found men very threatening, esp where I lived (Oldham) as men seemed only to want to get you drunk and shag you.

I did admit that those experiences were very stereotypical but that is where I lived at the time.

I do have close female friends now but I have more male friends than female and of my male friends, they are all quite feminist in themselves and certainly don't debate with a view to seeing men as the new 'victims' as Id implied. They have good strong debates about the role of women in different cultures and how equality is still a distant dream for many of them.

Rhubarb I know where you're coming from.
I am now on an all women team at work. All our clients are women and most of the other professionals we deal with are too.
Surprisingly much of the non work chatter is depressingly centered around traditional women's issues of food/ family.
In this case I think it's because the organisation I work for is Christian, and the 'equal but different' ethos excuses explains a lot of it.
I've also worked in publishing, same chatter rather than engaged debate teaching, not the same- wonderfully challenging constantly engaged politically. We were so evolved it was awesome- kids still got a crap education.

Hi - yes again that's what my experience was. When I had kids, the women groups in parent and toddlers and NCT groups. I thought they would be more forward thinking but they weren't.

If anything those experiences showed me just how little feminism had touched the everyday lives of women who still did the primary childcare, who gave up their careers, who saw themselves as housewifes, who placed themselves below their husbands. I realised that was not the way it was meant to be.

Yet some women are loathe to give up their positions as the downtrodden wives.

Mmm that's true LRD. It's much more common for men to have a hobby that takes them away to an adult, and usually same-sex space, than it is for women, in my experience.

Thanks Lambethlil.

It does happen and it's depressing when it does. But my views on women have nothing in common with my experiences. I see it more as the fault of society and the class division. The North West is generally quite behind in feminism because of the strong traditional roles that still exist there.