Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

Ive been thinking Bonsoir was a woman.

Agree that Xenia can be interesting.
But you need to remember with Xenia,that Xenia does not intrinsically believe the things she writes.
She does things,and then tries to believe they are right,not the other way round.

Bonsoir is a woman, it's her DH who is being imagined.

'She does things,and then tries to believe they are right,not the other way round. '
I think you're absolutely right.
And that's a very important distinction.

amillionyears, that is true of everyone. there are studies to prove it.

Yes definitely a spot for Xenia, clarity and tenacity and for Bonsoir too.

I'd throw ability to compete globally and to look after sick and poor in the mix with economic efficiency, equality and growth. Someone should be able to do a good equation.

Although I see this thread has moved on during my drive back from park.

What am I being asked? No real feminist wants housework and childcare elevated to some high status thing so she can stay home and clean round the rim of the toilet. That is anti feminism. Let us all acknowledge there are plenty of boring dull jobs and that staying home is just about as damaging as it gets for the cause of women as you don't even earn anything in yhour boredom and exploitation by man.

If I am being asked who looks after the children well women and men in all ages have always subcontracted dull stuff once they have the income or status to do so - the romans had slaves, the Indians in Africa use Africans, the Victorian english of even modest means had live in servants. There is no brownie points you get in Heaven because you spent a life scrubbing rather than a balanced life of interesting work whilst bringing up a family.

Go to summerflower's post not mine if you want to debate the issue properly. Ignore the question of who looks after the chidlren of men and women who work which is a separate issue and look at the balance within marriages. We need many more men not taking women for granted, many more men who do their own cleaning even if they get back from work at 10pm and many many more women not accepting sexist set ups at home who fling the apron at sunny Him and say "Oi mate if you want the loo cleaner I suggest you get down on your knees now with the loo brush I'm off to study the latest HMRC press release. I will check later if you ahve done it properly."

Xenia syas she does not "personalise" her posts, but still manages to offend whole swathes of people

hmm

Well, in my current incarnation I feel fortunate I don't have to be the kind of 'real feminist' you imagine, Xenia.

There are millions of dull, boring jobs - and no doubt the definition of what's dull and boring changes from person to person - but it has yet to be proven that having to do dull or boring work is in itself a form of oppression.

I think you're confusing 'feminism' with 'having my cake and eating it'.

Xenia, some of the tripe stuff you spout is almost as offensive as the MRA trolls' postings.

I actually can't be arsed to engage with you.

The Doc,eh? im now more confused.
vezzie,I so hope what you said isnt true.It is not true of me.So not everyone.Is it true of you in that case?

We were having a nice chat about capitalism.

A chat we hadn't actually had about nine times before in the very recent past.

Denmark as a feminist utopia, anyone? That's about where we were IIRC.

How can you ignore h question of who looks after the babies?

Unless your constant admonitions for women to go out to work and earn loads of money in order to set a good example to their daughters only applies to high status women? The phillipino nanny should just know her place onnminimum wage?

This is why I believe it's fruitless to imagine the overthrowal of patriarchy without capitalism. If we end up with the proles living in some kind of urban zoo like children scavenging for batteries on a toxic waste dump, doing all the shit work for the rich who send out their washing from their private islands, what on earth would be the point? I'm not sure where women like Bonsoir fit into this vision; presumably they are Atwoodian handmaids, fit to be educated but only to raise the patriarch's children, even if they aren't biologically yours and you don't especially like them.

None of this sounds like a vision for the future I'd like.

Disclaimer- I am basing this on Xenian/Bonsoirian tropes that they write, fully assuming that they pull half of this rubbish out of their arse to amuse themselves. I do not wish to personally attack them, as I'm sure they are not the same in real life as the characters they create.

oh

So you don't really have anything useful to say Xens?

Just dog eat dog and get to the top of the heap so you don't have to do the shitwork?

Xenia, I imagine many people would find what you do very dull and unfulfilling.
I know someone who set up her own cleaning business after many years of working as a marketing executive. She grew tired of office politics, long family unfriendly hours and demanding clients. She prefers hoovering a strangers staircase to marketing new products which don't much excite her. For you it's boring and dull. For her, it's a satisfying job. I imagine you find ALL domestic work dull. You'd be horrified to learn that women like me actually enjoy baking bread, picking the kids up from school and preparing a Sunday roast. That's not to say my dh never does it, because he certainly does. But if I'm supposed to say I detest all things domestic as a symbolic way of directing a loud Fuck You to the patriarchy, forget it.

So, moving on.

How about if we return to from each to each, so that in each community of (what number would be ideal?), there are tasks and jobs and occupations from which the hierarchy of status has been removed, and these are shared out depending on what kind of person you are and where your talents lie, with a fair rota for the jobs nobody wants to do?

Im bowing out for now,as consious I am going off the ops subject.

I want to hear more about Denmark!

I'm not sure LRD so many I met in Copenhagen really wanted to move to London. Ok not a huge sample.

But perhaps some of these remarkable countries don't give enough opportunity to move freely in a global market. I wonder if that kind of freedom count towards a happiness of some kind. The UK looks quite good to me.

Is it Denmark where the CEO can only earn a set multiple of the lowest paid worker? Or is it Sweden?

Or is it just in my head - off to google.

I will not accept a woman telling me that I am inferior, any more than I would accept it from a man.

Ah no, I was thinking of the Gini coefficient which measures, in this instance, income inequality - the closer it is to 1, the more unequal the distribution (1 = one person has all the money)

Sweden has it stated as a political aim to reduce income inequality, hence tax policies etc would be redistributive:
2006 paper

Here is a Wiki page where towards the bottom you can find the Gini coefficients after taxes and transfers for OECD countries:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Denmark = 0.248
Sweden = 0.259
Uk = 0.345
Chile (most unequal) = 0.494

Scandi countries are often held up as progressive in terms of feminism, socialism etc. I always wonder if it is true.

Germany is interesting - they think they are very progressive but casual sexism is rife there.

You know they have a word for women who are bad mothers, 'Rabenmutter' - literally translated it means a raven mother.

I was called that as a 'joke' when I went back to work. 'Du gehts wieder arbeiten? Du Rabenmutter' ha fucking ha.