Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

One woman's tag-team is another woman's bully?

Woffling I didnt come on FWR for ages because of those comments elsewhere on MN. When I finally did venture on I found the feminists here very welcoming and happy to explain stuff. I knew virtually nothing about feminism. I didnt know for example what patriarchy meant.

But then I didnt attack feminists or feminism on here. I actually listened and debated points.

It all seems really sad. It is so obvious that with MN getting attention with the 'We Believe You' and 'I Did Not Report', etc that MRAs decided to target. So obvious that when radical feminists seemed to find good company transactivists and sex industry profiteers started to target. And of course all the wavering, unformed minds who found those challenging and convincing radfems a little bit threatening would side with preserving the status quo, which the transactivists, MRAs and sex-industry profiteers would be arguing for.

How f*cking sorry and sad that MNHQ fell in line with the antifeminist defenders of the status quo- on a forum about feminism and womens rights which should surely be about challenging it.

Wake up!!!!! ARGHHHHH!

that is incorrect. there is no reason to miss old posters. many posters said their viewpoints made them feel bad and unable to post. now that they have left, everyone feels able to post and it is much better.

I actually agree with woffling, I was certainly intimidated that said.

What are the viewpoints that are actually missed?

And for those that miss them, why not post them yourselves?

Whereas I jumped into reading and posting on the FWR boards shortly after I joined MN, because I'd been a feminist since the mid 70s.
I learned a lot, but I also saw what many of the comments elsewhere on MN were referring to. I come from a large, academic and argumentative background, so being robustly argued with and occasionally flamed was a familiar zone for me.

YY, chibi, hurrah!

Eats - The name 'Feminist Theory' implies that the board is intended for discussion by those who know about the theories and are interested in discussing the finer points of same. I like to read about theories from time to time, while preferring more generalised discussions to stay generalised. In any topic - not only feminism - persistent interjection of theory can derail a conversation. Published & peer-reviewed papers can be given more credence than the lived experience of people taking part, seeming to devalue individual opinion.

Of course theory is important. It becomes part of received opinion when it's been boiled down to generalities, in ordinary language, which others can relate to their own observations and eventually feed back into theory. The boiling-down process starts with those who have the time, knowledge and inclination to discuss comparative theories in depth. I think it would be a huge compliment to Mumsnet's 'capital F' feminists if the theory board were to be used that way.

Are people saying that feminists are never attacked on here?

No.
Only that debates often ended in squabbles and insults and attacks from both sides.

"What are the viewpoints that are actually missed? And for those that miss them, why not post them yourselves?"

That is really weird. Its like advising someone who says 'I just miss my friend who gave good advice and could straighten me out when I was confused' - 'why not imagine what they'd say and say it to yourself?- totally unhelpful since we can't know all the information a unique persons mind and predict what they'd say in every situation.

One person's liberal feminists is another person's "wavering, unformed minds who found those challenging and convincing radfems a little bit threatening".

Welcome back.

all the wavering, unformed minds, FoodUnit? You call adult, literate women's minds unformed? If so, that kind of illustrates why there was a problem, I suggest.

Porto -

I agree. Diverse views and robust debate was what made this board great.

But I think people were treating legitimate disagreement under SAF's broad category of "trolls, mra's, handmaidens claiming to be feminists and the whole equalist nonsense" which is no basis for open discussion.

this is what people wanted, and what they asked for

really by this thread

agree that theory should be shoved away in a dark corner so normal folk aren't forced to look at it, it's not like feminism is a political movement so what is the point of theory?

Right on Sister garlic.

garlic - I agree that theory can be used to derail. But feminism is based on theory. It is impssible to talk about even basic feminism without talking about feminist theory. This may be in a very simple way as I agree it is not about published and peer reviewed papers.

Individual experiences are very useful tyo talk about, but only if you then use it to talk about the wider feminist implications. Because otherwise it just becomes - this man said this mean thing to me yesterday, or my child was given this ridiculous book yesterday.

The personal is political means that we talk about personal individual experiences and then recognise the wider political significance. You cant separate the two.

"all the wavering, unformed minds, FoodUnit? You call adult, literate women's minds unformed?"

Are you telling me who I mean by wavering, unformed minds?

chibi, it's not in a locked cupboard, no one is denied access. I don't understand why you think people are being deprived of Feminist Theory because it is now available on a labelled thread. Plus, this is an open site, nothing to stop others ignoring any labels and posting whatever they like wherever they like

Thing about the tag team is that here were usually a very few feminists posting and a multitude of sexist fuckwits, often from the anti-women sites we all know alas only too well. It was relentless sometimes and feminists were often massively out-numbered. Feminist comarardie was essential in the face of these.

No one was forced to leave and no one was forced to stop interacting

Fighting amongst posters on and off these boards, competitive feministing and constant calls of derailing when views that didn't perfectly match their idealolgy is what ruined the FWR boards

It does seem to be a more relaxed area now and that is good thing

I was an unformed mind. I had never heard any real feminist discussion or debates before or read any theory. My feminism boiled down to - yes sexism is bad and women should be treated equally.

That worked well in genuine cases of attack jenny, but sometimes the same approach was used on people that really weren't trolling or intentionally holding anti-feminist views, just who has a different opinion.

wolffingon by your post

YY, Eats; can't disagree with a word of your 10:45 post. The example you gave, of not knowing what patriarchy means, is a bit misleading because you'd certainly get an answer on this board (there's a long, current thread) and even in _Chat. When you get into things like the relevance of marxism to feminism, whether equalism is a valid concept, how intersectionality applies to feminism across various societies - and more - the arguments are inappropriate to a 'normal' feminist conversation as they haven't yet acquired enough flexibility (robustness) to adapt.

Woffling - It's ages since I've been called Sister!