Social conditioning - a thread for those who admit it impacts on them.

[SomersetONeil]

This topic seems to be so hotly denied on many threads I read on here (MN in general, that is).

Or else, admitted, but denied on a personal level. As in, 'OK sure, societal conditioning happens, but I choose to do X because I prefer it'. Acknowledgement of societal conditioning, but a peronal distancing of themselves from it, as if they're above such things.

We all undertand how marketing works, how social norms and unseen pressures work, and yet so many people insist it doesn't work on them.

Is it because to admit you're affected by it means you're somehow not very smart, don't have much nous, susceptible, gullible? What?

People also say that the accusation of social conditioned is patronising. Why?

I'm intelligent, well-read, educated, and I fully admit to being socially conditioned on so many levels. I'm not in the least bit patronised by the suggestion. Why would I be so arrogant as to believe that I am immune to it?

Anyone else?

Hello.

The socially constructed beauty imperitive is what brought me to feminism. I conform in many ways. I like to think I don't because I don't wear make up (only since I endangered my health by taking dangerous meds to ensure clear skin) and don't wear heels (am 5'10). However I colour my hair, shave, feel guilty for eating chocolate and before I developed, I intended on having a boob job! Where did I get that idea from? Why does cosmetic surgery even exist? If we weren't affected by social conditioning, why would anyone bother?

Sorry, I do include culture changes and normalisation in that, nit just the adverts that appear between 2 TV programmes necessarily. And some of it isn't necessarily driven by big business

enimmead - You think men would be described as eccentric if they don't conform? It depends on the way they don't conform. DP spends a fair bit of time in the UK for work and is not British. He doesn't wear the typical British business uniform of suit and tie but has never been called eccentric. Would he get away with it if he worked in the UK? I really don't know.

My DP is non-conformist dresser at work (he is the boss and doesn't care what others think) and gets snide comments from the female members of his team who would like him to have a classic French look. The men are much more admiring!

Adverts work? We've had one recently telling us all to pay our taxes! Maybe we're less trusting in general here of being told what to do. There's more of a 'fight the system' mentality here which I like.

Marking place to read later.

This morning I saw Brian May on the TV. With his massive grey hair - and not caring how he looked. Then you've got Richard Branson with his jumpers and all those "experts " with their bow ties etc. Think Open University lecturers who used to be on TV.

I can't think of many women in the public eye who are like that. Mary Beard is one exception - and look at the judgements she got, unlike any of the men.

Men conform at work. Suits and ties. But I think some men haven't been as conditioned - or aren't judged as much as women. Or maybe they don't care as much about their appearance as women?

Florencejon -

All countries have their cultures, and sub-cultures which people come to regard as normal. E.g. over what time you eat, what and how you eat, what you wear, sense of privacy, sense of personal space, sense of humour, manners etc... What degree of social nonconformism is acceptable in each of these areas is in itself a social norm.

I don't think it is possible to say that people in some countries are more socially conditioned than others, it is just that different countries have different cultures (...some more or less damaging to women...). People who travel and people who live in cities tend to be more questioning of social norms because they see that there are different norms, and this can make them question their own.

I agree that it is much easier to see social conditioning when you travel to another country. It is much harder to see it in your own country because it is just normal to you

Male conditioning and female conditioning is different. Appearance is one area where we are conditioned to judge women in a particularly scrutinising way- which is a pain if you happen to be born female.

But there is so much more. I think a big part of patriarchal conditioning is that men are conditioned to expect power but not responsibility and women are conditioned to expect responsibility but not power. And then we are judged accordingly...

Women are judged harshly as responsible for things they have no power to control (eg having pear-shaped hips or children with behavioural difficulties). Men weilding power irresponsibly is seen as 'just the way they are' they are not judged, but excused and forgiven (its a tough job, he's a red-blooded male, you can't make an omlette..) - in fact women usually are held responsible for the clean up.

So glad I finally got off my arse to start this thread - some really fascinating viewpoints.

Yes, nothing quite like travel to broaden the mind and make one question things. It's just incredible what you take for granted until you live in another country. Amazing some of the things you don't realise are weird until you encounter someone else's norm.

I mean, 'culture' - which everyone completely accepts - is just 'social conditioning' dressed up in an acceptable, palatable package really, isn't it?

I have read this thread and found it very interesting. I have a diagnosis of probable asd/aspergers syndrome and I don't really understand a lot of social stuff normally. I do not follow any kind of fashion, in fact I don't really know what it is and wouldn't be able to tell the difference between different styles of clothing. I can honestly say I have never looked at the clothes another person is wearing and considered them to be fashionable or otherwise. Myself, I have worn the same type of clothes ( jeans- not tight, i hate tight clothing- tshirt, jumper/hooded top if I feel cold, trainers) since I was at least 9 years old. I see absolutely no reason not to wear these clothes, which I find comfortable and protect my skin from irritation, and definitely wouldn't stop wearing them because another person stated they were not in fashion.

Also, regarding grooming, that most people seem to consider essential. I fail to understand why the majority of it is at all necessary. In particular I do really see why women should have to remove their body hair. In my opinion there is no reason to remove a normal thing that grows on your body, that isn't causing you any physical problems by being there. I also consider it a waste of time because its just going to grow back anyway. Similarly I feel that spending time on styling hair or applying make-up, is also pointless and I never do them either.

And the unequal standards men and women are judged by everywhere is often easier to see in different countries. I know when I go abroad I can see this inequality very easily. And i was talking to a woman who ahd recently immigrated from Africa who said she had been told that there was less inequality between women and men in the UK, and was taken aback to find that it was just as unequal but in different ways. The inequality was far easier for her to see.

Somerset - but social conditioning is not necessarily a bad thing, and as social (and cultural) animals it is unavoidable. Isn't a large part of what we do as parents an effort to social condition our kids with the culture of working hard, being considerate, knowing how to fit in when needs be etc...?

It is the content of the culture that is good or bad, getting better or getting worse, not the fact that we are socialised within a culture.

IME If you don't conform to the social norms you are likely to be told to go back home to your own country if you want to live like that, that you are not part of society, that you don't share the British values and that you are a threat to the British way of life. (even if you born and raised in UK and are white)

Personally my social conditioning was that I was expected to go to uni on time, have a career, marry and have kids late, as all of my family and peers did/have done.

I didn't do that, I am sahm had kids and married v. Early twenties, have no desire for high flying career etc.

However some people would still say my choices are due to conditioning and it is not until men have equal right to parental leave, women earn same as men same opportunities and so on that I can get away from conditioning.

However I don't feel any of those factors play a part in my life. I have had better opportunities then my Dh, have higher earning potential, etc.

Himalaya
Interesting points. Regarding social conditioning, I was looking at personal appearance from a time and financial point of view. Much lower maintenance here, so cheaper too. Probably an example of positive social conditioning or, as you say, cultural differences.

It would be interesting to compare expenditure on grooming on a country by country basis.

Bonsoir, it is easy to be "non conformist" if you are the boss!

Now if he would do it as a person in the lowliest position, that would be different.

If you are the boss, the others have to conform to you, IMO, what do you think?

Himalaya - "It is the content of the culture that is good or bad, getting better or getting worse, not the fact that we are socialised within a culture."

Brilliantly put.

This has made interesting reading.

I shave, wear make up, heels and do these things for me rather than to attract attention etc but I'm very aware that the reason I do these things "for me" is that is what is ingrained in me as "being nice" etc and it does get me down sometimes.

I feel that made more sense in my head.

florencejon, that is very interesting. I recently went to Paris on a work trip and was interested to see how different the women there all looked from one another: although they were all conservatively dressed for work in an office, they had all chosen completely different hair styles and clothes. Here I think that women are more likely to adopt the uniform for their age and culture - oh well I can't go wrong if I wear skinnies&ballet flats, or whatever, and same for hair and nails - and everything only suits some people, and some people don't look good in it. I have worked in offices at times where 95% of the women were blond, and only 20% of them could remotely carry it off.

Anyway on topic, of course I am affected by social conditioning, in all the usual ways you might expect, and some weird ones of my own (as I suppose everyone is). This morning a very nice looking woman got on the train and her friend complimented her on her new skirt and asked where it was from: "Age Concern!" beamed the woman and I admired her for booming it out like that, I don't like to admit how much I shop second hand. Everyone complimented my daughter last night on looking adorable in her little tweed jacket and I actually felt ashamed (I know, stupid, but real shame) that it was from ebay and I had sewn a name tape over someone else's name.

I can't see how any of us could not be affected by social conditioning.

And I always find it hilarious when some people get so het up and refuse to admit it. They, apparently, are just far too intelligent and sophisticated to be affected. They are making a choice.

I mean, as posters have said on this thread, you only have to visit another country to see it in action. Indeed, within the UK, you only have to move areas, or out of a social class to spot it.

The assertion often made that there is no conditioning for gender is just plain daft.

vezzie - yes, the variety you saw in Paris which you don't see in the UK. I'm very aware of the unofficial uniform of different social groups in the UK which wordfactory just mentioned. When they conform, Lordy, do they conform. It's back to that uniform mentality again, isn't it.

Good thread, Somerset.
I'm interested in fashion (and would I be if I were male and not encouraged to like it?) but there is a lot of femininity stuff I do solely because I'm afraid that people will think I look 'mannish' otherwise. Which is absurd because I'm very obviously female. Hate it but I have internalized all the ideas that a woman has to do a lot of work with her exterior and look a certain way in order to be a good (feminine) woman.

pretzel I have friends who are really into high fashion, and they are actually quite brave. Their style is fierce and definitely out of sync with women in the UK.

Men in particular find it intimidating, they say.

I am socially conditioned and will readily admit it. As I've got older I've developed a little more insight into it and a (metaphorically) thicker skin, so I've let some of the conformity slip, but I remain firmly wedded to much of it, despite knowing how firmly it's rooted in patriarchal values.

Whenever my DC ask why I'm shaving my legs though, I always answer "because I am conforming to patriarchal values of beauty". Given that they are under 6 this isn't going to mean much to them, but it will prompt an interesting discussion one day.